By that argument, Washington, Bolivar, Cromwell, Mandela, and Ho Chi Minh were not patriots.

"E cessive partiality for one foreign nation, and e cessive dislike for another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favourite, are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes upsurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests" ~George Washington



Hmmm, I wonder who ole George was referring to ?

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CHILCUTT~
The secret to a long life. Is knowing when it is time to leave.

It is stupid beyond reason to take a single quote to support whatever viewpoint one might have.

This is the method of argument of the True Believer. Whether of Jesus, Muhammad or Marx.

I'll give you a hint as to the complexity. What did Washington mean by "excessive"?

In my opinion, he is describing chauvinism (a term not invented during Washington's time) as compared to the more moderate form of love of country, patriotism. Would you care to quote Washington on his own patriotic zeal?

^While in the abstract it is true it’s never wise to over summarize or to borrow a phrase: “One should never create a universe from a single instance,” The comment quoted echoes similar comments Descartes, Pascal and several other scholarly philosophers of the Enlightenment.

“Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarreled with him?”
- Blaise Pascal

So, in discussing the nature of patriotism, we find that ‘Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori’ still goes to the heart of the matter; in discussing the question whether patriotism is a virtue we find that, at least until the claims for and objectifications to imperialism are fully discussed, the answer to the question ‘Is patriotism a virtue? Cannot be given

http://www.pdcnet.org/collection-anonymous/pdf2image?pdfname=cogito_1989_0003_0002_0104_0110.pdf&file_type=png

Descartes considered Patriotism as an example of self-serving duplicity made by leadership.

I also do not understand patriotism. I support people, not things. I live somewhere. Where I live is not who I am. I have traveled quite extensively. If I had the money and ability, I would move some where else if I were so inclined. Might stay there for a bit and then move somewhere else.

Personally I think the more we shed the idea of patriotism based on random lines on a map and start looking at our selves as one people whop live on the 3rd rock from the sun the better off we as a species will be.

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- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Agreed.

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CHILCUTT~
The secret to a long life. Is knowing when it is time to leave.

OMG, a reasonable argument. Everybody back away.

In my opinion, the keys to all of it are twin -- circumstance and moderation. Had Washington lost he would have gone down through history as a traitor and Benedict Arnold, a patriot. Neither of them was moderate in that both risked life and limb and property and their sacred honor for their patriotism. Were they justified? I think both were, though the limbs and souls of the dead and dying and wounded would mostly offer me reproach.

Can a person who does not offer himself up in sacrifice for their country reasonably claim those who do are unpatriotic, or vice-versa? Again, the answer isn't an absolute unless you die and nothing is more absolute than that.

When faced with a mortal enemy is patriotic violence misplaced? When faced with a presumptive enemy is patriotic violence misplaced? When faced with an inconvenient enemy is patriotic violence misplaced?

A Quaker might argue that violence is always misplaced but patriotism, perhaps not. Hence, Quakers have served in the military in noncombatant roles throughout military history.

Lots of people have simple and/or simplistic answers. None of them are universally correct. They are all situational.

If you are suggesting that “patriotism” amounts to a trophy for some actions, I will agree. I’ll go a step further and suggest it applies to an idealized type of support for the herd, but only in cases of some political goals.

If a person is seen as a genius and he or she defects from his or her home to help another group the other group may consider him or her a patriot, while at home he or she is a defector and traitor. This was the case of Albert Einstein, as example.

What is perhaps a broader issue for Einstein was that he had fairly extensive brain damage and that most certainly contributed to his decisions: Albert Einstein's brain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia His perceived “patriotism” and other achievements may be a product of his brain defects.

If a person is or is not very bright but dies serving the goals of his or her country’s current political regime, he or she would be promoted as a patriot.

Given that the minimal IQ level for members of the US military is 85, statistically speaking being a military patriot doesn’t necessarily imply good things about the role of intelligence in patriotism.

And not unrelated to above, police departments have been known to turn away those who have above average IQ: Intelligence quotient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yet, not a lot of police are considered to be patriotic, even though they are characterized as serving the protection of the herd and are entirely driven by political goals in their jobs.

If a woman dies during child birth, no national or broad political interest is necessarily served so she is not considered a patriot yet makes a supreme sacrifice for the continuation of her herd.

So in summary, if one is perceived as very bright and their actions makes many others die, or if they are not very bright and die themselves, they may be perceived as patriots, but if someone dies giving birth, of if they work to protect their community they are not patriotic.

For the reasoning noted the term “patriotism” is largely a deception designed to serve political goals rather than as a reflection of achievement or personal sacrifice, even tho patriotism is often portrayed as a (very messed up ) form of achievement.

Iirc the term is patriotism amounts to the blood of the fools and the thoughts of the wise in the interest of political goals.

Actually the definiton is less specific.

pa·tri·ot [páytree ət, páytree ňt]
(plural pa·tri·ots)
n
supporter of own country: a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life

You do not have to be a Patriot to live in the USA. I think it is easy to find a group of People in the USA to associate with that are not only not Patriots but are even Anti USA.

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Is that a good thing? A thing to be desired, and copied by a majority of the population?

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

"You do not have to be a Patriot to live in the USA. I think it is easy to find a group of People in the USA to associate with that are not only not Patriots but are even Anti USA."

If you were speaking of the above comment I personally don't like them but as long as they don't do anything destructive they have their rights.

2 things come to mind and one is the McCarthy era where People that had a right to be Communist were persecuted and the other is Countries where you need to act like a Patriot or the Secret or not so Secret Police take you away.

As an example I bet North Korean People are nearly 100% Patriotic and many in fear not to be. Appearances are important.

So I guess it is good live someplace where Patriotism is a choice.

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