I think the initial contact which put Ward out was a racing incident. I don't think Tony could see Ward but was in fact just trying to keep his car on the good part of the track and not jump the cushion. There is not enough film to determine whether Ward was passing Tony or the other way around. Tony's car was in front though and I believe the obligation is on the fellow behind to avoid the collision.

I hold them both in the same regard as reading tea leaves. Just as reliable but poop can be used for fertilizer, tea can be consumed,, not by me, face reading, not sure besides as a SWAG.

As always your view, your thinking is narrow. I never said or implied that I "relied" on info I think I might be getting from someone's face. It's part of the whole package. I've known people who were taken in by some con man and when I see the guy I think 'holy crap, they couldn't see that dishonest vibe?'

There is much evidence from various studies that some people are more gullible than others. I don't claim to be a genius on the topic but I come out better than some, Imo tell you what.

Ward's behavior was indeed somewhat erratic. He didn't actually jump out in front of anyone's car or he would have been hit sooner. He wanted to get close enough to be heard. Not brilliant behavior but not malicious either. And COMMON TO THE SPORT, i.e., not unexpected. I'm sorry, Stewart's trajectory, the sound of gunning the engine, the fishtailing of his rear end - it all adds up to something very close to malicious behavior. And for what? I suspect he really didn't like this guy beating him all the time.

Superstar? He's won a lot of races but that obviously did not confer wisdom or character. His words in that roast were just dumbass rude, and he can be seen in another vid grabbing the same woman's butt while her husband is present. I guess it wouldn't be less egregious if he wasn't there but there's more of an insult the way he did it. I learned of these things from my buddy, who like I said is a huge racing fan. He's seen Stewart in action quite a bit.

Point being, he's behaved like a crude boor, like his poopie smells like roses on numerous occasions. And he apparently thought he was better than this kid.

As for this nonsense:

As to sticking up for him, I thought, maybe I'm wrong but wasn't there something about us having to prove beyond reasonable doubt about guilt? Did you submit your face readings and video to the people inspecting the crash? They might just gain some valuable insight that nobody had.

Good Lord. You've lost the argument so you resort to sarcasm. And they don't need my help. I'm sure they can see it. Sponsors and the public won't need a conviction and jail time to form their conclusions.

It looked to me that Ward was trying to give him the track. He was falling back at the moment of the strike.

Yeah, just not fast enough.;)

Unfortunately, Ward walked into the path of race cars on the track not just once, but twice. The vid clearly shows him doing so. The vid also shows the darkness/unclear lighted area of the track - almost black at the rail and track surface, in several of the vids. No denying that aspect either. Why he decided to walk into the path of the race cars isn't clear. What IS undeniable is that he rushed or lunged twice at race cars. The 2nd time he did it, was when he was hit and killed. Unless anyone can prove that he wasn't lunging in the vid as he did, right into the path of the race cars, it's pretty well cut and dried. Perhaps he was suicidal that night? Or perhaps he was hopped-up on some kind of drug(s)? It will be interesting to see what the toxicology reports reveal on the track walker.

It was probably that catalyst for violence, marijuana


Sent from an abacus

Adrenaline?

^ I suspect that was the one. I don't think he actually went into the path of either car. #45 came close to him but didn't change his course from what I could see. My take is that he was standing to the side of the path Stewart WAS on but Stewart began to steer towards him and that's when he backpedaled. You can see, especially on the slo-mo version, as you have more time to look at the angles, that Stewart was angling away from the pole and up to the outside. After he hit him he continued on that course and ended up way, way higher on the track than #45 was. If he was interested in keeping the best position, he'd have mimicked 45's course - the shortest route and the densest part of the track.

I have little doubt Ward had done that stroll before. He knew where the cars would be. If they'd followed the course they started on anyway.

If you show something that is consistently reliable, I'll use it. If not, I don't even want to let it influence the decisions. If that is narrow, I'm good with it.

What I have found that is that I am a skeptical person.

Yes, it's common to the sport. So what? Everything should come to a halt because you did did something dumb? As to what he did, I'd like to hear his side in a trial as to why he did what he did instead of armchair quarterbacking.

OK. So he is a boor. What of it?

I doubt it. He only needs to do well in a couple races and Kevin will be little more than a memory.

If it hasn't happened under Aklim's nose, it doesn't happen.

Nobody had to come to a halt because of what Ward did. #45 didn't have to swerve to miss him. TS F-ed up, big time. He forgot for a moment that Ward wasn't inside of a frame, held in by major seat belts, with four large rubber balloons at the corners for protection and did one of his much spoken of 'I'm going to run him over' maneuvers. Bad karma done caught up with him. S'cuse me while a brush away a tear.

We'll see how this shakes out.

Unless you can produce videos that can overturn the ones already out there. I guess you're just beating a dead issue to death. The fact of the matter is that it was dark, very dark at track surface level, and the perimeter of the track where the incident took place. The dead man wearing all black jumpsuit decided to jump and lunge in front of race cars twice - the 2nd time was his deadly mistake. It is unknown what Stewart saw or didn't see, and when. What is not in question is that Stewart gunned his engine and simultaneously turned the steering wheel to the right at the same time his car hit the deceased. I would fully expect at least a deposition and Civil Trial against Stewart to happen at some point. I would be very surprised if one wasn't. At the very least an out of court settlement with unnamed damages paid by Stewart/sources. What we may never know is the truth from Stewart. Regardless what he says. Right now, I believe that the Stewart Camp's strategy is 100% in damage-control mode by continuing to cancel races, in an effort to show how truly shaken up Stewart is - whether he is or not, is again never going to be known. Unfortunately, that's what we've got to work with. Seeing is believing as the final moments of the deceased and Stewart's car coming together tells the whole, of what happened story.

It doesn't have to happen under my nose but I go along with the "hard" science and toss the rest into the septic system.

Let me guess, you saw all that in his face or a ouija board. If karma was real, there would be be a lot less evil in the world. People make it up to make themselves feel better about getting shafted.

Ward alive, my life goes on. Ward dead, the same. Won't matter either way.

NEXT!

:rolleyes:

Sorry but I will go along with real science as to what can be proved. I used to throw the junk out but since you like it, I won't further throw it in the landfill and let you help yourself to the garbage

DUDE! Get real. The insults are only further proof that you have no leg to stand on. It has been proven that some law enforcement officers are way better at reading what an armed perp will do than others. Many cops shoot at all of them. Some cops have a knack for knowing when it's OK not to shoot. When it's just some scared kid. How'd they do that?

Life is funny. There are things that are unknown.

Now, if you don't chill with the Ouija board and similar pea-brained insults, it's permanent ignore.

I don't know how myself but I'll bet nobody does. Point is, I wouldn't trust something like that for more than entertainment. Much like a party trick.

Sure there are. I don't rely on them any more than rolling a dice to determine outcome.

Seriously, I've seen people threatened with ignore like it is a penalty. Go ahead, make my day.

Not that many people talk to you right now, in case you hadn't noticed.

Best of luck in life kid.

In case you hadn't noticed, DIILIGAF? When you sign my paycheck, I will be more concerned.

Thanks,

LOL, Mamushka, the Dance of Brotherly Love

It does give the image of 2 brothers going at it

:wacko:

That's like, deep, dude.

I reviewed a few of your stellar contributions to this uhhh, debate corporal:

If a case can be made? Do you get the difference between dumb and malicious? I've been in plenty of situations on the street where I had about as much time as Stewart had to react after #45 passed Ward. And that's assuming FTSOA that TS didn't see him til that point which is highly doubtful.

If you tap the brakes on these cars, they go left. A disc brake on the front left, no brake on the front right. Needless weight.

Using the throttle to steer. Oh my Ghod, there are people in our once great land with their noses so far up Stewart's butt that they can't breathe properly. Tony Stewart, an acknowledged master at putting sprint cars where he wants them to go.

Ward was dumb, but he wasn't quite suicidally dumb. He didn't actually get in front of any of the cars, that's why he wasn't hit. Wasn't hit until a short fused prima donna decided to F with him and steered upfield to do so.

Dismissed corporal.

I have not seen any video that can support your claim that he ran up the track to engage Ward. I have not seen any testimony from eyewitnesses either which state that. What you are saying could be true but I just cannot say what I think from a fraction of a second of video before he got to Ward.

As for being an expert on car placement, racing is one thing, car placement on yellow flag conditions is a different matter.

I don't think there is a school to go to to learn how to deal with other drivers on the track intent on engaging you when you are in your car and he is not.

We have a pretty poor video to look at and it does not have an intent meter in it. You are convinced you know what was in Tony's mind.

I simply wonder.

Ultimately it will be up to law enforcement and prosecution if it will end up in courts or not.

If no criminal charges are filed I would expect civil action to recover money, perhaps with an out of court settlement to get it over with.

I just watched it a few more times. Ward is definitely further down on the track when Tony's car arrives on the scene. its pretty clear that Tony's front wheel did not hit Ward and it is clear that Ward ended up hanging on the wing and would not appear to have suffered any serious injury until he came off the wing.

This leaves the question, what was he doing on the wing?

Cmac believes he grabbed it because it was the only thing he could do at that point to avoid the rear tire.

It can be argued he grabbed it for some other reason and that his best recourse would have been to jump away from the car. Perhaps he intended to grab onto the wing and damage it so Tony could not race competitively after the confrontation.

So the question of intent cuts both ways. What was TS intent and what was Ward's intent?

We don't know the answer to either question.

At what speed was Stewart's car moving when it approached Ward? I think that even an angry person is not going to reach out and grab onto part of a moving vehicle. I think a more likely scenario was that Stewart was aware that Ward was there and seething, and deliberately kicked out the back of the car to intimidate Ward and force him to jump back. Through a combination of bad judgment and misjudgment, the car came into contact with Ward.

That is possible too.

It is also possible ward was standing on the nerf bar in addition to hanging on the wing, although that tidbit of possibility really does not impact your thought.

It also looks like if he had time to grab the wing he had time to jump back if he wanted to.

Watch the slo speed vid. Car #45 continues along an inside track, which is where you would logically go under a yellow flag, especially with a car just ahead up against the outside rail. When Stewart enters the frame, you can see that his car is angling upfield. It's obvious. There is more room between the front of the car and the inside edge than between the back of the car and the inside edge. You can see Stewart's rear fishtail out to the right when Ward is still about at the front tire,well before he was in a position to grab the wing. You can see the wing deflect down when Ward grabs it but that is after the car began to fishtail. Looking at the real time vid, it's amazing that he was able to grab the wing.

Also, it's interesting that as he grabs the wing and it deflects downward, the car fishtails to the left. You would think weight on the right would make the rear of the car pull to the right. That it goes instead to the left indicates to me that 180 lbs of human body is no match for 8 or 9 hundred horsepower delivered through a fat tire.

And, you can see that he ends up well upfield. I've watched the in-car cams on these cars. The front wheels steer just fine at slow speeds.

On most of the youtube vid comments, about half of the people say manslaughter at least. Regardless of what the courts do, I suspect this will not be good for Stewart's career.

Both vids to me indicate he was backpedaling as soon as he saw Stewart heading upfield. His position didn't look different from his previous pass by with 45 to me. From the real time vid, my take is that he didn't have time to get completely out of the way, plus the right rear tire was kicking out to the right, making it harder. Amazing that he had time to grab the wing. I suspect it was "OH $H!T" adrenaline that enabled him to do it. Almost worked.

Good Lord, how different this story would be if Ward had survived and given his account. We might not have even heard about it in that case.

It's not clear whether or not Stewart ran up the track to engage Ward. I'm not aware of any testimony of any kind from eyewitnesses either. There is no conclusive explanation of what was happening before the car got to Ward.

The original video shows enough to clear Stewart of any criminal charges.

There's a lot of projection about what was in Tony's mind. I'm not sure how conclusions are being stated, without evidence. But whatevers.

Criminal charges aren't likely - if they haven't been charged yet. If the kid's family has any class they won't pursue a civil suit, but I would wager large that they will do just that or settle with a big payday. The kid willfully and with intent to do harm, darted into Stewart's race car, and paid the ultimate price for it - just as the video shows. End of story.

It's not possible from the vid to state that Stewart's front right tire/wheel, did or didn't strike Ward. It's not in view.

He was not hanging on the wing either. He was struck by the wing as he moved past it, summarily being tossed about like a ragdoll - all because he was hit by the car that he had lunged into. That's indisputable.

Ward's intent was 100% clear - attacking the Stewart car by lunging into it. Stewart had zilch intent proven in the video. We know the answer to one of the participant's intent here. -Just watch the vid.

Not even close.

If Stewart's front tire had struck Ward, it is highly unlikely that his hands would have wound up on top of the wing, which is where they were. For some reason, I can see it more clearly on my iPhone screen. Any strike with the front wheel other than the tinyiest freak brush-by would have knocked him over.

Projection about what was in Tony's mind? Uhhh yeah, it's called guessing, it's wondering what was going on. You have concluded that Ward was so stupid he would try to attack a car with his body. What, that's not projection about what was in Ward's mind? He actually lunged away from Stewart's car. It's obvious. Ward made a fatal assumption. He assumed that since pretty much main purpose of the yellow flag is to allow the safe removal of wrecked vehicles and stranded drivers that the remaining drivers would drive in a slow and cautious manner, taking care of anyone who might be on the track. With that assumption, he stretched the 'person on the track' thing too far, and used that for cover to point, flip off, and otherwise gesture and shout at the object of his ire.

Good lord, my embarrassment for others in the species continues. A driver in sprint car is remarkably well protected. Check out the Youtube of Stewart breaking his leg in a sprint race about a year ago. He came out of that highspeed mayhem with only a broken leg. Helmet, roll cage, harness and you think Ward thought he was going to him harm Stewart while he was still under power?? It boggles the imagination.

Look again at the slo mo. Just as Ward's body is disappearing from view, you can see Stewart's rear fishtail out to the right. Unmistakable. He did not need throttle to steer at that speed. That people would advance such a theory is beyond incredible. You can also see from the front wheel movement how Stewart operated the steering wheel. At this speed, the front wheels control the car quite well and you can see the car respond to the steering wheel movements as you would expect it to.

Stewart is steadily moving upfield during the entire episode, you can see it further and further away from the rail. No eyewitness testimony? You miss the point of this. We're trying to be independent investigators here. Testimony will come later. The rescue team was only 10 seconds behind the accident and this while they were moving perhaps 25 mph. One wonders what they saw.

Ward's family should sue Stewart. His behavior was 180 degrees different that the driver in #45. He had plenty of time to make a better decision. It sounds crass, but children are an investment. You hope to have some help from that son in later years. The Wards have lost that. As Stewart was about 3/4ths responsible for this fatality, and is reportedly worth $70 million, he can devote several of those to the Ward family to help compensate for their loss. There is no need to prove malicious intent. It was dumbassery, not intent to kill. You might want to study the meaning of criminal negligence.

A report is out that Stewart may retire. This would fit with sponsors pulling the plug. A more graceful way to handle it. And it would give him cover to continue as an owner of cars and tracks:

Tony Stewart Retirement: Driver Thinking Of Retiring After Kevin Ward Jr. Death - Hollywood Life

I'm actually feeling some compassion for the guy. He spent years in a hair trigger sort of sport, where a certain amount of aggressiveness is part of it. He made a bad decision in a fraction of a second, almost certainly meaning to scare or insult the kid and he calculated wrong. I fully suspect he was smacking his forehead after he pulled over maybe 50 yards past the spot of the accident.

Well, can't say I'm surprised. No criminal charges, no fault for Stewart, and toxicology reports indicating Ward was under the influence. Ought to make a civil suit a bit more difficult as well.

MV

Under the influence of what, please?

Ward had Marijuana in his system. No toxicology on Stewart that I saw.

As a few members are chomping at the bit to point out that stays in your system for a while and I too doubt he was racing high, but that did come out in the investigation.

Its sad that someone young lost their life but listening to wards parents, they just want to get paid. Its got nothing to do with grief for them.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2014/09/24/kevin-ward-jr-marijuana-toxicology-report-tony-stewart-grand-jury-decision/16160043/

Here, I really should have included this:

STORY

But to answer your question, marijuana, "in significant quantities to impair judgment".

MV

That is really odd. I knew they did toxicology tests but I would have bet against it coming out positive. I wouldn't have guessed that he took enough to impair judgment or even taken anything prior to a race. I'm not a pro driver and I don't even like to have a drink with anything alcoholic in it less than 2 hours before I drive.

Interesting story about Stewart though:

Before it came out, they never mentioned it. All we know is that Stewart is the bad tempered lout. Suddenly, he is a charitable person. Wet finger, stick it up in the air to see which way the wind blows.

A fellow here in town who I know well, is very into racing and goes to events and such. I believe he might have even drove as a chauffer to Tony on occasion says that Tony has a fairly modest home in the neighborhood he grew up in in Columbus Indiana.

Wonder why they did not publish Tony's tox report?

Because one was never done. They used a certified drug recognition expert to determine that he was clean. Wish they did his tox screen the same way.

I imagine the tox check is a routine part of an autopsy. Apparently the other method is standard for race tracks...?

Don't know about track rules. I wish they would do the pee in a cup, blood sample, hair sample and even deeper checks when we have something this serious happening.

Seems like the police should have done that.

I can't believe they wouldn't do one on Tony. And yes, pot does stay in the system for about a month. Ward could have gotten high a week before the race. The grand jury had a tough assignment. Ward was acting aggressive and agitated and what do they know about sprint cars? Not to mention, TS is a star, large fan base and burden of proof is what it is.

But to me, it is obvious. Stewart could have driven by him just like #45 before him, but then he would have had to endure getting flipped off and yelled at. He gunned the engine and went way upfield. The doubt on that is approx zero. He's legally off the hook and he's a dick. Not mutually exclusive.

They were summoned so I can't imagine why not test both parties. OTOH, cops cannot do random tests on Stewart without probable cause. I don't know if that rule is suspended for death on a race course. Do you know for certain? Just curious.

Seriously? They just said and you are trying to say it was him being high a month ago? I suppose your complaint is now that the burden of proof should be on the less appealing party?

Yes. Lets throw aside the testimonials from witnesses, among whom are a couple of accident experts. Lets even forget that the video you saw and supposedly based your unbiased opinion on were shown to the grand jury OK. So you think he is a dick. What's your point? That you are sore because the dick didn't get convicted as you feel he should? So you think the grand jury should toss evidence aside and simply focus on the public appeal of the accused? This is no different from people who claim the moon landing was faked simply because it didn't fit the religion. I don't care how many charities or good deeds TS did. Either he is guilty or he is not. I don't care if he is a dick. That has little to do with guilt. The burden of proof has always been with the accuser not the accused. Either we say that all have the right to make the accuser prove their guilt or we don't.

If being a dick was relevent. I and a few others here would be in for life.:D

Probably not. They wouldn't have enough space with all the people like me who would be in for several lifetimes.

There is no reason for Stewart to allow a check without any warrant. He hit someone on a race track that was clearly coming after him. What would submitting to a check prove, other than it wasn't his exhale that caused Ward to come after him.

Stewart has behaved in a confrontational manner, out of his car, towards other drivers in their car. People do that with the assumption that the driver is mature enough to not run them over. I have no idea what the toxicology report is proof of. Ward looked plenty agile and physically capable on the track. #45 missed Ward by several feet. If Stewart had continued on the path he was, the normal yellow flag behavior, would have missed Ward easily.

Dick, schmick, he gunned his engine and went way upfield on the guy. Why the grand jury people couldn't see that is beyond me. It is as plain as the nose on the faces of all present. In this vid, you can clearly see the fishtailing beginning while Ward is still visible, IOW, has not been hit yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxPiyEWCzls

Elsewhere in this thread has been stellar scholarship such as this:

The reason for the fishtail is he hit the gas, and oddly enough at just the right moment for the car to go towards Ward in a menacing manner. Clearly headed upfield at the same moment.

I'm sorry y'all, OJ was found not guilty also. Stewart is guilty as sin on this one.

Guilty of what? ...being a dick?

Apparently the grand jury thought that was not illegal, apparently.;)

Ward was coming after Stewart? Waaaaa! That's the saddest thing I ever heard. Here was poor Mr. Stewart, protected only by a roll cage, helmet, and 700 hp sprint car and the clearly doped up Ward was going to hurl his body and naughty words at him?!? This is an outrage!!

Stewart was in long rehab not that long ago. It was a fatal incident with a motor vehicle. Stewart should have been checked. Might have a pain-killer med problem. The fat ass puke has been treated like royalty from the git-go. Boggles the mind.