PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/)
-   Off-Topic Discussion (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/)
-   -   Tony Stewart Runs over Competitor after altercation... Murder? Manslaughter? (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/358480-tony-stewart-runs-over-competitor-after-altercation-murder-manslaughter.html)

aklim 10-03-2014 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392500)
I have said many times that I thought homicide was too strong a charge. It is racing, it's dangerous, and Ward was a dumbass. But I can't get past a strong suspicion that TS is guilty of some sort of reckless endangerment. I don't think he meant to hit him. How many times do I have to say that? No, it was not murder in the first, second, or third degree.

Ward was definitely dumb. Walking up towards a moving vehicle isn't smart. But then, being having enough dope in his system to be legally considered "judgment impaired" during a race is not only dumb but reckless. Is it possible that he meant to kick dirt on his face? Possible. Doesn't make sense though. He already got (assuming he ran him off the track) Ward out of the race. Nothing more to be gained except wreck his car. Now he has his car to fix and the race is over for him. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense since he could have rubbed it in Ward's face without doing anything but completing the race.

75Sv1 10-03-2014 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3392446)
So the Andrettis were arrogant. I really don't care why they were. I'd be more leery of someone who comes across as "sweet as pie" than an arrogant jerk. The nice ones tend to be more dangerous in my observation.

Actually, I now know more about TS and Ward than I ever did before the accident. Don't even follow who does what in their world.

Man was legally impaired. No way he should even have been on the track even if he was driving a broom. Race sober or don't.

I didn't infer that I thought they were arrogant. Others perception was that they were as to not meeting and greeting the fans on race weekends. I do buy their explanation that they had to concentrate on their setup etc. Arrogance, confidence, sort of a fine line. Pushing machines to or past their limits, need at least one or a death wish.

aklim 10-03-2014 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 3392593)
Pushing machines to or past their limits, need at least one or a death wish.

Probably all 3.

75Sv1 10-03-2014 07:37 PM

I did search the web for videos. I looked at two. One was 1/20th speed. It showed the initial crash. I didn't see any contact.
On that video, there were three cars that passed by from the time Ward got out of his car and TS came by. Two of the cars drove a line higher than TS. Ward gets out of his car, walks down then back up, above were the first car's line is and above were his car is parked. Then another comes by, about 1 to 1/2 width of a car of a car lower than the first. Then the blue and white one comes by, near the bottom. I would say TS is a median between the high and low cars. TS's car only goes off his initial line as he passes Ward.

cmac2012 10-04-2014 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 3392690)
I did search the web for videos. I looked at two. One was 1/20th speed. It showed the initial crash. I didn't see any contact.
On that video, there were three cars that passed by from the time Ward got out of his car and TS came by. Two of the cars drove a line higher than TS. Ward gets out of his car, walks down then back up, above were the first car's line is and above were his car is parked. Then another comes by, about 1 to 1/2 width of a car of a car lower than the first. Then the blue and white one comes by, near the bottom. I would say TS is a median between the high and low cars. TS's car only goes off his initial line as he passes Ward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxPiyEWCzls

Look again. Compare the distance TS's car is away from the pole from when he enters the frame until when he comes upon Ward. This is not a long forward distance but you can clearly see him move upfield in that short time. This tells me he was on the pole just before he entered the frame or else he'd have been further in. Contrast that with car #45 who did follow the pole.

Ward is just disappearing from view when we see the rear of Stewart's car fishtail to the right. If the car had struck him, I seriously doubt we'd see his arms high up on the wing a split second later. My take is he was able to jump back enough to miss the front wheel but the rear was swinging to the right at this time and throwing his arms up was a reflexive measure to avoid the big right rear tire.

The car then fishtails more obviously to the left with Ward hanging onto the wing, contradicting the notion that his body weight made the car move to the right.

This pic gives a view of that he might have been looking at after he dodged the front tire. You can see that the only thing available for him to push off on or to grab to save his skin was the wing, as it's further outboard than anything else:

http://the-list.files.wordpress.com/...car-racing.jpg

t walgamuth 10-05-2014 05:54 AM

We don't know what Ward was thinking when he ran down the track, did not run away and grabbed the wing any more than we know what Tony was thinking when he drove higher on the track then he needed.

Some faulty thinking on both parts it appears.

cmac2012 10-05-2014 03:06 PM

Looking at the real time vid, I don't have too much problem with going with a rough idea of what TS was thinking and it went something like "FU Punk!!" Ward did try to get out of Stewart's way, you can see him starting to backpedal but he didn't have much time. Probably the most damning bit of evidence is the clear way that TS's car is moving upfield just in the approx. 2 car lengths we can see after he enters the frame. Given that he enters the frame close to the pole, he must have been following the same line that #45 was on until he turned towards Ward.

So Ward didn't dart in front of Stewart, Stewart changed course. KW was a dumbass to be where he was but that does not absolve Stewart from using his car like a weapon, even if he didn't mean to hit him.

t walgamuth 10-05-2014 03:24 PM

I just watched it again. I saw Ward take at least seven steps down the track to confront Stewart. I did not see him backpedal at all. Tony's car was pretty close to the car in front too, and Ward may have been blocked from his vision by the car ahead.

MS Fowler 10-05-2014 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3393148)
Looking at the real time vid, I don't have too much problem with going with a rough idea of what TS was thinking and it went something like "FU Punk!!" Ward did try to get out of Stewart's way, you can see him starting to backpedal but he didn't have much time. Probably the most damning bit of evidence is the clear way that TS's car is moving upfield just in the approx. 2 car lengths we can see after he enters the frame. Given that he enters the frame close to the pole, he must have been following the same line that #45 was on until he turned towards Ward.

So Ward didn't dart in front of Stewart, Stewart changed course. KW was a dumbass to be where he was but that does not absolve Stewart from using his car like a weapon, even if he didn't mean to hit him.

That pretty much sums up your pre-judging of the matter.
You see exactly what you want to see. Of course, your ability to read minds empowers you unlike the rest of us.

cmac2012 10-05-2014 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 3393180)
That pretty much sums up your pre-judging of the matter.
You see exactly what you want to see. Of course, your ability to read minds empowers you unlike the rest of us.

This is not logic or reason, this is the dreaded ad hominum.

Are you telling me that you didn't see and hear TS goose the throttle and go upfield? That he would do that at all under a yellow flag, especially since his trajectory took him very close to the disabled car is very unusual. Turns out, he did it exactly at the point where it could intimidate or spray dirt on Ward. #45 and TS were both in a broad turn as they were approaching Ward. It wasn't some continuous angle line of sight. Other drivers have said they know he saw him. Under a yellow flag, if you don't look to see what's on the track you'd be an utter fool.

It looks to me like he was standing at about the same spot where he was when #45 went by with no incident. You can't see TS move away from the pole before he reaches Ward? It is so obvious in the slo mo. Watch #45 in relation to the pole and then watch TS.

I watched the vids dozens of times before I came to these conclusions. The prejudging lay with those who think Reefer Madness was a documentary and that Ward was a punk who played in traffic, end of story. There was dueling dumbassery in this event. Stewart did his own independent cheap move.

Ward started to backpedal but didn't have time to go anywhere. You can see him plant his feet and start to go backwards. And it is abundantly clear from the slow mo that Stewart's car was fishtailing to the right before he could have struck Ward. It is so obvious when you watch it carefully.

And it is way obvious that TS's car was fishtailing to the left when Ward was hanging on the wing. No way 160 pounds extra is going to slow down 700 hp to any significant degree.

MS Fowler 10-05-2014 07:00 PM

This has gone for 260+ posts.
No one has changed anyone's mind. Therefore i conclude that the facts are not convincing. Now its all emotion.
You simply won't accept that there is any other opinion but yours.
The only way to end this is to stop posting and reading. I will take my own advice. I am done with this thread.

cmac2012 10-05-2014 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 3393235)
This has gone for 260+ posts.
No one has changed anyone's mind. Therefore i conclude that the facts are not convincing. Now its all emotion.
You simply won't accept that there is any other opinion but yours.
The only way to end this is to stop posting and reading. I will take my own advice. I am done with this thread.

I accept your surrender. I understand that people are reluctant to admit they've been wrong. There is absolutely no doubt that Stewart moved upfield towards Ward before his car could come in contact with Ward's body. Further you can see the fishtailing, you can hear the fishtailing on the original vid, I mean what the hell else was going on other than he was trying to intimidate the kid?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Stewart dipped himself in slime with this one.

75Sv1 10-06-2014 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3393245)
I accept your surrender. I understand that people are reluctant to admit they've been wrong. There is absolutely no doubt that Stewart moved upfield towards Ward before his car could come in contact with Ward's body. Further you can see the fishtailing, you can hear the fishtailing on the original vid, I mean what the hell else was going on other than he was trying to intimidate the kid?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Stewart dipped himself in slime with this one.

Yes, you are reluctant to admit you are wrong. I do not see what you see in the videos. The video you post has a block on it, or password. You did not explain what the reaction of the vehicle would be with the extra weight on the wing. To me it explains the two turns up and the reving of the motor. I have dropped a wheel off into gravel etc. The motor sometimes revs up with the loss of traction of one wheel, so the power is transmitted to the other wheel. So it dose not have enough friction to contain the transmitted power.
Also, this is on a slight bank. From my experience in skiing, to turn you take the weight off the down hill leg. Gravity pulls you down hill. So with ward on the wing, as you admit, takes the weight off the down hill wheel. The rear of the car goes down hill, thus looking like it was turned up hill.

t walgamuth 10-06-2014 07:22 AM

The sprint car has no diff. It has a solid axle thus the need for different size tires in back to turn it.....so if weight is taken off the left rear it would tend to go toward the right....actually it wants to turn left at all times so it would want to turn left less and would appear to move up the track somewhat.....I think.

cmac2012 10-07-2014 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 3393376)
Yes, you are reluctant to admit you are wrong. I do not see what you see in the videos. The video you post has a block on it, or password. You did not explain what the reaction of the vehicle would be with the extra weight on the wing. To me it explains the two turns up and the reving of the motor. I have dropped a wheel off into gravel etc. The motor sometimes revs up with the loss of traction of one wheel, so the power is transmitted to the other wheel. So it dose not have enough friction to contain the transmitted power.
Also, this is on a slight bank. From my experience in skiing, to turn you take the weight off the down hill leg. Gravity pulls you down hill. So with ward on the wing, as you admit, takes the weight off the down hill wheel. The rear of the car goes down hill, thus looking like it was turned up hill.

It took me a while to see it. But as Stewart approaches Ward, you can see the car twisting in a counterclockwise direction, well not twisting in some perfect circle, but the rear is fishtailing to the right, you can't see the rear of the car but you can see the left rear wheel and the side of the car moving as if in a counterclockwise direction. This is significant to me, as it indicates he had goosed the throttle and turned upfield, well, goosed the throttle anyway but you can see by the way he's moving away from the inside edge of the track that he had turned upfield.

As for why it goes the other way when he's on the wing, hard to say. In the real time you can see the visible front wheel turn to the right and back noticeably at that point. Maybe the rear swung out from the steering input. But he ended up much further upfiled than did #45 and I don't know that the weight of Ward's body would do that.

The video has a 'warning, graphic' block and you need to get a user name with Google to "prove" that you're 18. I have gmail and that works.

http://s20.postimg.org/4hkq1bnml/45_Ward_Car.png

http://s20.postimg.org/cyk8c8sbh/St_Ward_car.png


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website