real farmers all gone

[oldsinner111]

I know in California when I left,farms,and vineyards were took over by big corporations. Poor farmers inticed to buy the airconditioned tractor,with tape deck,tv,heated massage seats,had one bad year,and banks stole it all.
I'm hearing here on the news,chickens killed,pigs,milk dumped,food burned, to keep prices high,and no illegals to process our foods. Companies closed.
I know if it was back to family farms surely they'd say come get,milk,eggs,crops,as many chickens you can catch.

[barry12345]

We as a society could stand a resurgence of family farms. There would have to be very serious changes to enable it.

It is not impossible to happen but highly unlikely. It is expected by estimate this virus issue will reduce family farms by another 15 percent. In Canada.

We as a society have been spoiled by cheap food prices. This very well could change. Most societies pay a much high percentage of their incomes for food.

When I did service calls in rural areas many years ago the imbalance was obvious. A father and son team might be working five hundred acres and just getting a living out of it. Where what they grew fed masses of people. There was little to no return on capital investment. Manipulation of market buying prices from the farmers was allowed. What was not allowed was their organizing to get a fair return for their labors and investment.

Things evolve with time of course. I suspect we are a little too shallow at looking at the longer range implications. Far far too much of our prosperity is driven by steady increasing debt to enable it. That to me is not a good longer term approach.
Nor is it a true prosperity. There was mention about going back to a sustainable economy. This got a serious negative reaction. Yet it has to happen at some time. Or the bottom of almost everything will fall apart.

Even agricultural colleges tell students stay away from owning a farm. Work in the food industry but do not farm. In any event I do not know if we no longer use much common sense or I am just too stupid to really understand these changes. France had a good situation for farmers years ago. I do not know if it still persists. Or they have gone the corporate farm route as well. How do things work?

Locally if you wanted to buy farmland it was very cheap. As it became almost impossible for the smaller operator to make it pay. Then with global warming it was established our area would become one of the better food production areas left in north America. So all of a sudden prices went high as the corporate faming operation purchased of leased an unbelievable amount of land. To maximize profit they have all kinds of approaches.

It appeared to me that at least they believe global warming is a real trend. They also are financially able to do things like this. I wanted to buy a parcel of land adjoining our house lot. To leave to the kids and grandchildren. Just as a hedge against problematic times if they were to occur. I waited too long as the price ballooned. I have figured the worse thing you can leave offspring that have never had any adversity in life is mostly money. We helped them when they just got started in life. I figured it had more value to them. Generally you need money or what it can do when younger than older. They have all done well enough over the years anyways. Any money we will leave will mean very little to them at their current ages and situations. . So if the wife spends it instead after I am gone is just fine.

We are sitting on a pile of money in this virus situation. That's if the returnables place opens up again.

I am a capitalistic type of person. Yet I have lost faith in any fairness it has for far too many people. No system I have ever examined is really all that good. So I have settled on what presents the common good for most of the people at that time in history is probably for the best.


A resurgence of smaller farms to me is a good thing for people if conditions are changed enough to make it function well again. When I was a kid some of my uncles made a good solid living on farms. Plus the were all over the place. I believe easy credit has to go as it distorts everything.


For example the price on that parcel of land I was interested in. Cannot be economically justified. Yet it is sellable on easy credit terms. Even though the buyer can get into big trouble. If he needs a return on investment. Easy credit also encourages a generation that cannot think.


Retrenching to a more cash based society could restore the value for money equation. It could also reduce the economic slavery that has become all too evident.

[oldsinner111]

Liked that Barry, I know why the market demands a certain amount to keep prices so farmers can make a living.Just wished non for profitts could get throw aways free,for nations with people dying.Or America ,could have a reserve for population during bad times,at not higher prices. Meat here has gone up 3 times. This morning,I bought a bunch of ramen,beanie weenies,hot dogs to freeze,potted meats. For the lean times supposed to hit.

[vwnate1]

I didn't see mention of how hard and filthy a job farming is....

I was a kid on a airy farm in rural New England, boy was I ever pleased to discover I had a knack for fixing things so I wasn't forced to be up to my knees in cow/pic/horse poop....

Your ideas all sound good but the facts is : the subsidies are all for the 15'ers and corporation farmers .

Greed and avarice are considered O.K. in American now .

They've been dumping good milk since the 1960's .

I've been reading where some mid West farmers are putting potatoes and other unselable veggies out by their driveways for the locals to at least be able to eat .

California and a few other states have begun to buy up produce cheaply to re distribute in food programs .

It's not terribly hard to have a vegetable patch in your back yard for your own consumption, when I was young we did a lot of home 'canning', this means putting fruits & veggies into glass bottles so they'd last all Winter long .

Bankruptcies by smaller farms are ramping up quickly now .

[barry12345]

You are right as usual Nate. Nobody wants to really work hard anymore. If they can find an alternative. Working harder or otherwise for almost nothing has no appeal either.


If a way could be found to equip smaller farms with the needed modern equipment without breaking them. They might start to come back.


When corporate interests harvest or plant their owned or leased fields here. Their are millions of dollars of equipment on the fields. I suspect over time they do not bother much with keeping the leased lands up. Then just move on. Vertical integration also removes distribution of money through society.


They should be heavily taxed but as huge corporations are not. Smaller farms mean a lot more employment as well overall.

[vwnate1]

Thank you, I know I'm right and it really saddens me .

I was a Dairy Farmer (Milking Short Horns) in the 1960's and the life was pretty good if filthy, muddy and hard, hard work .

Being a Mechanic was more my style, I'm mechanically minded and never really good with the plants aspect of the farming .

Sadly, hard work does indeed kill a lot of people but too many will never even try it to see .

[Autoputzer]

The free market place forces constant improvements in efficiencies. I'm old enough to remember mom and pop grocery stores, drug stores, hardware stores, gas stations, toy stores, etc. They're almost all national chains now. The constant demand for efficiency improvement is now putting the screws to national chains.

My parents grew up on farms for part of their childhoods. But, automation and competition has caused most of those family farms to go away. My grandparents moved into town and got non-farming jobs, to have a better life.

Yeah, those tractors are expensive. The problem isn't the airconditioned cab. The problem comes when the tractor is sitting idle most of the time. The solution is more acreage per tractor, and that means bigger farms and/or operation of the farm being "farmed out" to operators who keep their equipment running 80 hour/week instead of five hours/week.

[Autoputzer]

Originally Posted by barry12345

You are right as usual Nate. Nobody wants to really work hard anymore. If they can find an alternative. Working harder or otherwise for almost nothing has no appeal either.


If a way could be found to equip smaller farms with the needed modern equipment without breaking them. They might start to come back.


When corporate interests harvest or plant their owned or leased fields here. Their are millions of dollars of equipment on the fields. I suspect over time they do not bother much with keeping the leased lands up. Then just move on. Vertical integration also removes distribution of money through society.


They should be heavily taxed but as huge corporations are not. Smaller farms mean a lot more employment as well overall.

I didn't mind manual labor when I was a teenager and in my 20's. But, as I got older and my physical health declined, I was glad that I could make a good living by just tippy-typing and clicky-clicking. I had a severe back injury in my late-30's. After that, if I had to relay on manual labor to earn a living, I would have starved to death.

My neighbors had a one-man-operation yard guy. He was in his 40's, maybe his late 40's. He got sick, and that was the end of his livelihood.

[INSIDIOUS]

Originally Posted by Autoputzer

I didn't mind manual labor when I was a teenager and in my 20's. But, as I got older and my physical health declined, I was glad that I could make a good living by just tippy-typing and clicky-clicking. I had a severe back injury in my late-30's. After that, if I had to relay on manual labor to earn a living, I would have starved to death.

My neighbors had a one-man-operation yard guy. He was in his 40's, maybe his late 40's. He got sick, and that was the end of his livelihood.

If only that worked for politicians who were sick in the head

[barry12345]

It is possible to become too efficient. Some efficiency loss is tolerable even desirable if it sustains an overall society better. Or the gains of much higher efficiency have to be redistributed much better than currently.

China is a current example of automating as fast as possible. With the intent of distribution of the gains across their society. In many ways it is the same as too much efficiency. That ignores the needs of far too many. without an adequate sharing policy.

People need function to balance their lives anyways. So work towards making it possible. Rather than eliminating their needs. Many old conventions could be modernized if they were not blocked by other interests.

You do not have to resort to labeling it a certain ideological issue. In fact that is really counterproductive in nature. Calling it just a better balance and Having less issues situation with society would be enough.

Taking a region and using it as an experiment should be possible. If it works well others will want it.

To start with if the newer approaches where working so well. Why the need for constant heavy deficits by governments at all levels? In a way they are a failure.

Small level manufacturing is also very problematic today. Where to me it should be much easier to establish. As you move away from efficiency based on monopolies. The support system for it grows back again.

The reduction in the need for people that are truly productive makes little sense to me. Unless we were short of people.

I see a tiny move back locally when the prices of certain commodities have gone too high. Even though efficienctly produced. The excess markups on them has left an opening. Some smaller production is coming back on line. That has been absent for decades. In fact we as a couple are consuming it. Plus the people to people interactions are good.

They may even buy the incidental thing or service from me. Where the huge corporations will not. I do not like driving on only one way streets.

[Autoputzer]

Originally Posted by barry12345

It is possible to become too efficient. Some efficiency loss is tolerable even desirable if it sustains an overall society better. Or the gains of much higher efficiency have to be redistributed much better than currently.

China is a current example of automating as fast as possible. With the intent of distribution of the gains across their society. In many ways it is the same as too much efficiency. That ignores the needs of far too many. without an adequate sharing policy.

People need function to balance their lives anyways. So work towards making it possible. Rather than eliminating their needs. Many old conventions could be modernized if they were not blocked by other interests.

You do not have to resort to labeling it a certain ideological issue. In fact that is really counterproductive in nature. Calling it just a better balance and Having less issues situation with society would be enough.

Taking a region and using it as an experiment should be possible. If it works well others will want it.

To start with if the newer approaches where working so well. Why the need for constant heavy deficits by governments at all levels? In a way they are a failure.

Small level manufacturing is also very problematic today. Where to me it should be much easier to establish. As you move away from efficiency based on monopolies. The support system for it grows back again.

The reduction in the need for people that are truly productive makes little sense to me. Unless we were short of people.

I see a tiny move back locally when the prices of certain commodities have gone too high. Even though efficienctly produced. The excess markups on them has left an opening. Some smaller production is coming back on line. That has been absent for decades. In fact we as a couple are consuming it. Plus the people to people interactions are good.

They may even buy the incidental thing or service from me. Where the huge corporations will not. I do not like driving on only one way streets.

That's for the people buying the goods or services to decide. They'll always vote with their wallet for lower prices and higher quality products and services.

We could have 100% employment if the government paid half of the unemployed people to dig holes, and the other half of the unemployed people to fill the holes in.

Automation has caused the workforce to become more skilled... if they want to eat and have a roof over their heads. When I started working, there was one secretary for every five professionals. When I stopped working, the ratio was about one to 30. But, that one secretary was more skilled. The same thing with draftsmen.

The benefits of automation and increased efficiency started when Ogg the cave man started hunting with a spear instead of a rock. He killed more game, producing more food. That meant when he got back to the cave, he got more *****y... which created more cavemen... more automation and more efficiency.

[barry12345]

I like people and really believe they are fully entitled to their beliefs. Efficency is good if the benifts are truly passed along. If it instead is used primarily to increase obtainable profits is another whole story.

As requested today by the wife. I purchased some peppers with other items for us. I paid 2.98 for three with no issue. At another store I saw the same three same packaging at 4.95.

Now it was not a lost leader a the first store. Both were substantial sized chains. It to me indicated an excess profit margin was perhaps in the second store. Perhaps the peppers where efficiently produced. I just feel the customer in the second store would not benefit from it. Would they in the first as well. I just do not know.

I have had issues especially with how Chinese goods are retailed in north America. Excessivly marking them up has created the richest family in America. Plus excludes any hope of creating jobs internally to make them.
I just feel we have been on the wrong track for some time. I could take more time and define it better. Again it just appears as a one way street for cash flow. Or far more of it than should rationally exist.

We as an old couple have some money. So the system kind of works for us. I just no longer think it works for enough people. Plus in this constant building a higher house of cards debt situation to enable it.

There have to be massive distortions present. When I have to depend on times like this to buy a piece of heavy construction equipment at a price that makes sense for what it can produce. Instead of having competing buyers that only care about the cost per month. They have mentally moved to not rationally looking at its true value. Some fundamental values have seemingly been erased from the society at large.

Or there are games afoot I just cannot grasp well enough. This easy credit situation alone has to me been of no real benift to individuals. When it gets down to it being a requirement. To enable a credit driven consumer basis economy to the percentage it has. What comes next when it saturates?

In my lifetime if something is working well. It gets changed. Then when that does not work well changed again. Seldom do you see retrenchment back to what was working decently. Most members on this site still have a decent standard of living. It does concern me if it is on a sound foundation. With so much continuous debt loading at all government levels. Whatever happened to the concept of balanced budgets. In other words a country and the citizens living within it's means.

Simply because we still at our advanced ages as a couple are still engaged in things that remove the blinders that even our children wear. If this is efficiency or a product of it. It needs examination.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind the system cannot stand back and let things find their own natural level at this time. Simply because it is pretty well aware of what it might be. So money has to be borrowed at huge amounts to still support a synthetic situation. Other wise the blowout could be unimaginable. Yet it still has to occur at sometime in my opinion.

I really have come to believe that sustainability is not an unreasonable objective. To work towards. It is much easier to start in that direction well before the house of cards blows over. Than after.

[Autoputzer]

Originally Posted by barry12345

I like people and really believe they are fully entitled to their beliefs. Efficency is good if the benifts are truly passed along. If it instead is used primarily to increase obtainable profits is another whole story.

As requested today by the wife. I purchased some peppers with other items for us. I paid 2.98 for three with no issue. At another store I saw the same three same packaging at 4.95.

Now it was not a lost leader a the first store. Both were substantial sized chains. It to me indicated an excess profit margin was perhaps in the second store. Perhaps the peppers where efficiently produced. I just feel the customer in the second store would not benefit from it. Would they in the first as well. I just do not know.

I have had issues especially with how Chinese goods are retailed in north America. Excessivly marking them up has created the richest family in America. Plus excludes any hope of creating jobs internally to make them.
I just feel we have been on the wrong track for some time. I could take more time and define it better. Again it just appears as a one way street for cash flow. Or far more of it than should rationally exist.

We as an old couple have some money. So the system kind of works for us. I just no longer think it works for enough people. Plus in this constant building a higher house of cards debt situation to enable it.

There have to be massive distortions present. When I have to depend on times like this to buy a piece of heavy construction equipment at a price that makes sense for what it can produce. Instead of having competing buyers that only care about the cost per month. They have mentally moved to not rationally looking at its true value. Some fundamental values have seemingly been erased from the society at large.

Or there are games afoot I just cannot grasp well enough. This easy credit situation alone has to me been of no real benift to individuals. When it gets down to it being a requirement. To enable a credit driven consumer basis economy to the percentage it has. What comes next when it saturates?

In my lifetime if something is working well. It gets changed. Then when that does not work well changed again. Seldom do you see retrenchment back to what was working decently. Most members on this site still have a decent standard of living. It does concern me if it is on a sound foundation. With so much continuous debt loading at all government levels. Whatever happened to the concept of balanced budgets. In other words a country and the citizens living within it's means.

Simply because we still at our advanced ages as a couple are still engaged in things that remove the blinders that even our children wear. If this is efficiency or a product of it. It needs examination.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind the system cannot stand back and let things find their own natural level at this time. Simply because it is pretty well aware of what it might be. So money has to be borrowed at huge amounts to still support a synthetic situation. Other wise the blowout could be unimaginable. Yet it still has to occur at sometime in my opinion.

I really have come to believe that sustainability is not an unreasonable objective. To work towards. It is much easier to start in that direction well before the house of cards blows over. Than after.

So, does that mean you should pay $2.98 for three peppers and I should pay $4.95 for three peppers? I buy bell peppers from Sam's Club in six-packs (two yellow ones, two orange ones, two red ones). I don't know what they cost. I grab the bag and put in on my flatbed cart.

The providers of goods and services don't pursue increased efficiency for the benefit of their customers. They'd love to put all those efficiency gains in their own pockets. But, free market forces (efficiency gains of their competitors) will force them to share those efficiency gains with their customers.

I spent a lot of time managing budgets at work. I took over the finances of a mismanaged project. One of the first things I did was build an Excel spreadsheet that automatically did what a contracted budget analysis spent several days each month doing. So, we let her go. Her employer found other work for her to do. Having her spend several days doing something that could be done automatically did not benefit society in any way.

My favorite landscape automation tool is my leaf blower. There are people who want to ban them, so we can pay people to spend ten times as much time doing the same work with a rake and broom. Those are the same people who also want everybody to get paid at least $15/hour and have full medical benefits (maybe another $7/hour).

I worked at a military munitions depot at one time. There was about 6000 acres of woods, and there was a program to pay mentally challenged people to manually rake leaves. That's fine. They got a sense of accomplishment and an income, and they stayed off of SS disability. But, manually raking leaves shouldn't be the norm in our economy.