According to National Geographic, only 13 percent of Americans 18 to 24 years old can find Iraq on a map of the Middle East; 11 percent of Americans couldn’t find the U.S. on a global map.

Further evidence in the argument for privatizing education. The government schools can't even teach people where they live!!!!!!

Mike

__________________
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1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
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1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
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1985 300TD
270,000 miles
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1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

LMAO... this has to be fake. I mean, how can slightly more than 1 in every 10 Americans NOT BE ABLE TO FIND THE U.S. ON A GLOBAL MAP?!?!

I agree with you, TANK. Always look at the source.

That being said, I think the NEA has done a real number on this country and we can see it when we put our kids up against kids from other countries. I'm one of the lucky ones who got out of the public school system after the second grade. Thank God!!

I'm also for vouchers for two reasons: it will open up the benefits of private education for those that can't afford it and it will create COMPETITION in the school system. Public schools have been sliding downward for years because there's no reason for them to have to be better. The government will send them $$ anyway. Bring healthy competition into the mix and they'll improve.

I think one must also address the inequality of public education by neighborhood. I grew up in an affluent neighborhood and the public schools were and are still excellent. I don't know of a truly wealthy neighborhood that does not have a really good school (I'm sure there are exceptions here but this is what I observer in Los Angeles).

Also growing up in this kind of environment was very conducive to learning because:

1. All the adults around me were gainfully employed professionals in well paying jobs.

2. I didn't have to worry about my physical safety on a daily basis. Violent crime on campus was nearly non-existent.

3. Many of the kids in my neighborhood had their moms at home plus their fathers were often home at a reasonable hour. Today this seems like an economic impossibility for most. Parents at home contribute greatly to a child’s learning. Many parents today - myself included - work MUCH longer hours. Few can afford to be a single income family. I'm sure there are exceptions but that's how it is here in LA.

4. In high school nearly all of the student body was focused on what college they were trying to get into. Only a handful that graduated DID NOT go onto further education.

I think the problem is complex. Teachers are not well paid, yet they can have such a huge impact on our future generations. Why is this? If teaching were really valued it would/should pay more - right? Or is compensation to be determined only by a short-term monetary profit?

I don't know what the figures (maybe someone can answer this?) - are, but how much does our country spend on education relative to other programs? Looking back to the post war era, how much of the federal budget was spent on education compared to how much is spent now (in relative terms and $$s)? After all it takes money to train and pay teachers and build well equipped and designed schools.

I'm not saying that the answer lies in spending endless dollars on education at the public level. There's obviously a lot of inefficiencies in government. But my point is that I did receive and excellent public education. It IS possible.

I think about how we have the greatest military in the world. We have the best weapons in the world. How did this come about? Our government spent lots of money to have all this stuff developed (yes, I know these are private contactors) and to train and house or men and women of the armed forces.

Maybe we could use a similar apporach in education?

As to the comment on the NEA - sflori - you do mean the National Endowment for the Arts - right? I'm not sure if I understand your point. Arts are an important component in teaching children critical problem solving skills as well as giving them an outlet for creative expression. Those who can problem solve in creative ways tend to be most successful in whatever business they go into.

tkd_m119 has some excellent points. My friends, my wife, and I have spent much of our adult lives working in California's educational system, from the elementary school to the State University and University of California levels, and I would like to add to and comment on these points.

First, the university system admits students from the top 15-20% of high school students. Yet two of the most crowded college freshman classes are remedial English/composition, and remedial math! It is not uncommon to encounter students who have never heard of Joseph Stalin, Isaac Newton, Robert Frost, the Emancipation Proclamation, or even the Wright Brothers. Some students can't perform 4-function math without a calculator, and others don't use caps, ANY punctuation, or decent sentence structure in their writing. And in recent surveys, 75-99% of students (depending on their major) admitted that they regularly cheated on exams. If this is the top 20%, I can believe the original post, and question that California has good public schools.

Second, while Federal expenditures on education are MUCH greater now than during the 50's and 60s, California spends less money per student than almost any other state, ranking in the high 40s every year. (We are 50th in what we spend on roads, but that is another issue!). Yet on 'special' programs such as ESL, Developmentally Challenged, etc. the spending ranks towards the top of all 50 states. Special interest lobby groups, politicians, and lawyers drive these costs upwards every year. Ditto parents, many of whom regard the school as extended day care for their kids so the parent can get on with their career and life. Yes, longer hours and dual incomes often cut into home life and the extended education process. But are those long hours necessary, or is it just more satisfying to have nicer cars, homes, and vacations than if one parent only worked part time when the kids were in school and devoted the extra hours to family relationships and education? I know a number of bright, talented people with graduate degrees who have curtailed their law/science/business careers and income so that they could assume their responsibilities in educating their kids. Education begins and ends at home, folks. Teachers are your partners, not your substitutes!

Throwing money at the problem isn't the answer. Spending the available funds wisely is required. For example: One of our friends is a certified master teacher with over 30 years experience. Her present job is not in a classroom, but to mediate sessions between schools/teachers and lawyers/parents of developmentally challenged children. Your severely autistic child 'could' benefit from being in a normal classroom environment, so the school must provide a full time adult aid for this child while in the classroom. Special summer school in Texas? Your lawyer will get your child $4000 per week for the school, and weekly transportation/accomodation expenses for a parent to visit. Swimming with Dolphin's therapy? With the right lawyer, the school may pay for it. A special bus 20 minutes after the regular school bus because your child "can't" make the normal one? No Problem! Wouldn't it make more sense to distribute these resources more equitably?

Thirdly, pay for a teacher is terrible. Yet hiring and promotion in the public schools is based on being current in Educational Theory and Development classes! Public schools have had PhysEd and History majors teaching math and science. While this doesn't mean the teacher is incompetent in the field, we sent our kids to a private school because the school required a degree in the field you were going to teach, as well as a teaching credential! The degree doesn't insure competency, but is an indicator of some degree of familiarity and interest in the subject.

Finally, our entire educational system is aimed at college prep, yet not all students will benefit from or are capable of a college education. A high school diploma was once considered a decent education for moderately ambitious people who wanted to get ahead in life. We assume that everyone wants to go to college, when all too many don't even want to finish high school! We lack a decent system of trade, skills, and practical education for students who don't necessarily want their lives to focus on Kippling, Li Po, or Fermat's Theorem. However, politicians consider this concept elitist and potentially discriminatory, and won't consider it.

So yes, I can believe the original post. It fits in pretty well with what I saw every day, unfortunately.

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

I wanted to add a bit to this topic. First and foremost, public schools were never intended to be the beginning or ending of where to get an education. Education is, or at least should be a life-long process that starts at home and grows with the drive of the individual to better themselves and continue to grow.

I think that the example that Mike represented at the top of this thread is a glaringly harsh reflection of how lazy and indifferent our population has become. Fat and lazy. That, unfortunately is the USA. It is the by-product of too much cash flowing in the wrong direction, which does little but give us all mind-numbing toys that we call tools. Radios, Stereos, TVs and now Computers and PDAs, that increasingly bring us anything we can think of for very little effort.

Because of our cultural indifference, public schools have become little more than a state sponsored baby-sitting arena. The too few folks that excel in this environment would do so anywhere, while the remainder languish in daily only moderately inspired tedium.

Public schools reflect the desires of the public to get the kids outta the house for a while and who cares what happens while they are away!?

Don’t vote for more school spending, get off your butt and help motivate someone to learn!

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Maybe if we're lucky Iraq won't be on any maps this time next year and it won't matter anymore.

__________________
Jason Priest
1999 E430
1995 E420 - retired
1986 420SEL - retired

Oh yeah, let's privitize education. That way those wonderful rich and middle class people will be able to advance their knowledge better than ever before, while those horrible poor people who really need the help can't afford to learn anything. Excellent.

I think a better alternative would be to revamp the current public education system. Equal access to education needs to be available to every citizen, and that will not happen with a privitized system. I agree that our current public education system is a joke, especially when compared to those that exist in several other countries around the world. I do not, however, agree that privitizing will help anything.

__________________
Ben

The MBs:
1976 300D (W115) - 330K and still going (sort of)
1991 300D 2.5 Turbo - Sold at 221K
1983 280SEL - Sold at 206K
1981 300SD - Sold at 232K

I too, believe vouchers are the way to go. Take the amount of funds appropriated for school funding, split it evenly among each kid, and let parents send their kids to whatever school they choose. This effectively levels the playing field for kids of all income levels and makes schools accountable.

This isn't a question of separation of church and state like some may try to argue. It's a case of equal protection. Equal protection from bad schooling, equal opportunity for everyone.

Kuan

We're talking all schools here. Private, public, charter, and home. It doesn't really matter what kind of schools they are. If private schools don't perform, parents will send their kids to a school which does, private or other.

Kuan

You certainly see first hand the problems that we face with the educational system in the US. Hopefully good teachers like you and your wife will continue to teach and not lose heart.

In regards to a basic high school education, your post reminded me of a Gordon Liddy show I listened to a few years back. He listed, verbatum, several questions that appeared on a typical eighth grade test from many years ago. I couldn't believe how difficult these questions were-- even for a typical college freshman by today's standards! Like you mentioned, unfortunately today's students' days are spent learning "social skills" and other usless things instead of the basic Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic.

One of the greatest heros of my life is Anne Carroll, one of my high school teachers. She taught me how to form an outline and turn it into a coherant research paper, among many other things. She founded a high school while her husband founded a college. They've always given up the "good things" in life for their work and live in a small apartment in VA.

Sorry for the digression, but teachers like they never get the attention they deserve!

Tracy, your post hit the nail square on the head!! I couldn't have stated my feelings on the topic any differently!

(Slightly off topic)
Working in television, I feel a bit guilty due to the effects that this medium has had on society. (Most of what I do is government distance-learning, public policy or news, though.) Sometimes I wonder how a student thirty years from now would be able to do research on a topic if he didn't have access to any computers. Entire encyclopedias are on CD. WordPerfect corrects spelling, checks for syntax errors, and formats papers automatically. Will anyone need to know how to write properly anymore??

Parents expect schools to provide all of the education for their children, plus babysit them, plus keep them physically fit, plus provide them with citizenship skills. Then they cry the blues when little Johnny can't name all the presidents.

People expect that they can eat at McDonalds everyday and then have a quadruple bypass to keep them alive. I know lots of people that have no idea of what it means to take care of themselves.

Tracy is right. People have become fatter and lazier than ever.

They are also selfish and inconsiderate or others.

Look at the people you encounter everyday. They drive hulking fat SUV's cause they and their progeny are too fat to get into cars. And they're proud of it! "I'm just too "big" (should have said obese) to get into one 'o them little tin cans.." They don't care that they waste food, gas, and everything else they can get their hands on.

If Americans are stupid, stop blaming the education system. Start blaming yourselves. Cripes, for people into personal freedom and all that crap, they can't stop blaming someone else for their problems.

And if there are problems with the education system, stop making off-the-cuff suggestions that are not real solutions. I have yet to meet anyone that suggests "privitization" or "greater accountability" that has a clue of what they mean. They have no real plan for implementation, or long term delivery. Research? Nope. I heard Pat Buchanan say it, so it must be true.

Stop flapping your gums in the g-d breeze and get off your ass and do something about it.

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

For goodness sake John, maybe I'm missing the point, but I think our local school district can accomplish all that and more for $11,000 per student. Some districts spend even more than that. Give me a good reason why, after 12 years at $11,000 per student that Johnny average high school grad can't spell? There's absolutely no reason.

Kuan

Quoting myself? D'uh... well, there's a reason. It just occured to me. Kids know no other dictionary than the one which Microsoft provides. Therefore they miss out on words like fair, efficient, affordable, opensource, reliable.

Kuan