Does change have to come from within? (Not rhetorical)

The US was born of revolution, and it took the will of the people to do it. Are we altering the natural course of events by not allowing Iraq to follow the same path? Of course, even the American Revolution was not without it's global events, including the intervention of the French.

The French helped in the formation of the mighty US-A? Jeez. Maybe they're not such a bad bunch? Hahaha. They just hated the Brits is all, sorry France, couldn't get a point for you.

The idea that Iraq is "better off" is purely subjective. Depends on who's point of view you're using. Is it for the majority of citizens? Perhaps.

One thing that is for sure is that the US position in the area is both stronger and weaker. They have gained control (somewhat) of enormous energy assets, but the cost in human and monetary terms is pretty big.

The only thing I know for sure in this issue is that there is no right or wrong. It's way too gray to take a stand on either extreme side of the argument.

All said though, the $87B might be a pretty good stimulus package if GWB has it all flow through the US. Not the Marshall Plan, but might help out both sides.

Is that crazy little coot in North Korea any less dangerous that SH was? He's waaaay more dangerous. They don't have any oil. They have big guns and an incredible will as a nation. Very different from Iraq. We're talking the brink of WW3 with these nuts. So, drop the ideological debate. Iraq was not about disposing a dictator or saving the world from evil. WW2 wasn't until it was over.

Some days I wake up, read the news, and wonder why we don't nuke the entire middle east (yes, including Isreal) and be done with it.

Jeez JS on a roll tonight. Why we don't nuke the whole Mideast? Because we need a spot for the USS Nimitz. That's why.

__________________
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman

...uh, I think you've been hanging around too many Americans lately. I don't usually associate that sort of bombastic jingoism with Canucks -- eh?

Z, dude! Come on. He's being fatalistic and sarcastic, not jingoistic!

A very pessimistic friend suggested the following scenario in 3-5 years. It is a scenario well within the realm of possibility.

An Islamist group gets a nuke and detonates it in Tel Aviv. Israel responds with nukes in the capitals of several Islamo-fascist states.

Is there any way to prevent that from happening?

What should the USA do now?

Would the UN or EU be of any use?

...oh, was I supposed to use the or the there to denote the levity of my response to his sarcastic post? My bad.

Is the US obligated to do anything? The best thing we could do is stop pouring billions into the Middle East as we meddle in their internal and regional affairs. The fact that we obviously take sides only adds to the tensions and ill feelings.

Of course, the same goes for our pathetic involvement in Colombia's ongoing internal struggles.

Just a theory: If the US stopped throwing its weight around the globe, would the UN possibly be able to function as a properly neutral intermediary in these struggles? I don't know, but I do know that what we're doing now ain't helping.

Oh, sorry about getting his witticism and missing yours. I'm probably just so "en garde" with you that I try not to read anything into what you write. Means I probably miss a lot, huh?

I agree with your Columbia comments. The problem with Columbia is our stupid drug laws. If we could get our house in order Columbia could become a lovely country. I lived there for a couple of years and have visited several time since. IOur drug problems have brought ruin to them.

Our obligation to ourselves and the world is to stay true to the beliefs that founded our country, beliefs that we should live and die for. That everyone is created equal; that government comes from the consent of the governed--not from divine right; that the people have a moral duty to jealously guard their freedom at all costs. We screw-up occasionally and muck-up the lives of innocents. But if we stay true to those same ideals, we will survive even our worst behavior.

Of course it hasn’t. The time period of roughly 1929-1939 in the USA was considered a result of a number of insane factors centered around so-called “laissez-faire” economics, coupled with the last great migration from the USA from being an agrarian to an industrial economy, coupled with aggressive lending practices, coupled with over production and so on. Add to this a few dumb things done by 2 of our own presidents (at the time, that is. There’s been countless dumb things done by our presidents) due to their own mixed agenda and you get a disaster waiting to happen. And it did.

Before you unholster your 6 gun of parallels between the crash of ‘29 and the more recent crash consider that there is no system of trade without peaks and valleys. Consider the overall resiliency of the system to be able recover and prosper vastly thereafter. Consider the strength of the system to not only succeed for hundreds of years but bring every nation on the planet in the direction of capitalism, and, by the way, along with an increase in health and longevity for all. Plus toys. Consider also that according to stats, at the worst of the Great Depression employment was still stated as being around 70%.

This seems to be the crux of the argument. I’d like to see something other than opinions to substantiate it. Suggesting that millions of jobs are going off shore, leading to the ultimate demise of capitalism is nothing but fear selling theatrics.

Which is why education, as just one means of advancement, seeks to provide a means for folks to receive training. There are also those book loaning places....i think they are called Libraries. Plus the web can provide access to a great number of topics, in less time than it takes for a M*A*S*H episode to unwind. The point being the opportunity is there if one is willing to invest more a trivial effort.....

The supposition of life without labor/hardship/struggle/gains and losses has no foundation outside of perhaps Eden. Your comparison is to put a yolk on a story told to a naive child and ask for it to be like the sands through the hour glass....


BTW, sorry to read of your dad's accident, but it's good he's Okay!
Hope you suggest he have the Dr give him a thorough workup - especially the head and neck.

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...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

I'm not sure we could send someone that worked at the GWG Levi Strauss plant here in Edmonton that recently closed to the library and have them become a high-tech worker, much less in half an hour. These folks operated sewing machines.

Not the downfall of capitalism. Heck, I think it's the best system we've found yet, but anything can be improved with time and energy. What we need to do is ensure the continued strength of our nations and their standard of living. Greed, lefty style.

True. However, we can direct that labour and competitive spirit in many ways and directions. Take Gene Rodenberry's "Star Trek" vision for the future. There is no one that does not have their basic needs met, but not everyone is the Captain. There is competitive struggle among humans for positions of power and prestige. Humans struggle to advance and survive, but as a race opposed to as individuals.

Thanks, and he has. Everything is okay. Some glass in his hands is all. Amazing.

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John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

And i wasn’t suggesting that as 'the' solution or 'the only' solution. They could, as example, go to the library and find out a little about opening a business, or just ask friends if they need any sewing done, or go to any number of upholstry shop, laundry washing cleaning shop, boat related shops, uniform shop and see if there are any opportunities. Note i said go to and not call. Not much effort in that. My point about the time investment was just the willingness to invest time to benifit themselves – as in it’s more useful than watching TV....That is, if the seamstris is willing to do anything other than look for a “job“

Apologies, I thought you were following the hit and run supposition of the downfall of capitalism following on the heels of alleged jobs lost to other countries. I don’t have any problem with greed. It is motivating. I'll save the Gordon Gecko speech from the movie Wall Street. Still, I’d like to see something substantial to back the claim that India getting tech support jobs hurts the USA in any way. Without substantiation, again the assertion is just fear selling tactics, which there has been a lot of in recent threads.

I’m a huge fan of StarTrek. One of the quirks of the 4 series and movies is that they never show much about how world prosperity has come to be other than to allude to it’s relationship to unlimited power.

That aside, modern life in the USA and Canada isn’t that harsh to begin with. Almost everyone in the USA and Canada has electricity, hot and cold running water, indoor toilets, heat, access to health care. This is a human victory unmatched in history! Something beyond the dreams of almost everyone before a few decades ago. These are basic services which draws on more cooperative effort than was involved in building all of the great structures of the ancient times. Folks hinting at the evil nature always seem to over-look these little details. Even better, these services are available to almost everyone. Even folks working at Taco Bell. With this as a foundation of modern times, we have *great* prospects ahead.

The quirk is that humans are the only speecies on the planet to seem to pretend to ignore the realities of life. It takes daily long hours of work to survive, for every living thing everywhere on the planet. Only humans try to pretend working to survive is not their own responsibility. In any hunter speecies, the best hunters eat first and most. Only humans would demand that the best hunters not only share the catch but wait their turn for a meger portion of the meal they bruoght to the table in the first place. And all so that the rest of the herd can live. When taken too far, this profit sharing makes it impossible to succeed. In the end all die from famine due to such misled spirit.....which, BTW, in German is called Irregeführt geist.

The further government digs into the pockets of successful individuals and corporations the further away from a successful culture we have

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...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Lebenz, you seem to have all sorts of ideas for what 'those people' should be doing with themselves. Do you actually know any poor people--I mean, do you really 'know' anyone who's currently afflicted with poverty right now? Just curious, cuz none of the poor folks I interact with on a regular basis have much spare time to engage in your prescribed self-help regimen.

Maybe you should think about hitting the motivational lecture circuit to boost their morale and initiative, to get them "up off their lazy asses."-- as you've stated before. You could get one of those predatory lending institutions like The Money Tree or a check cashing joint to underwrite your tour, since they know a thing or two about how to 'reach out' to poor folks. Good luck.

As to the detrimental effects of outsourcing jobs:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1102-10.htm

I too spend lots of time with low income families and they have little "spare" time. They often work several low paying jobs to make ends meet. As they've been squeezed on the wage front, one job has been replaced with two, then two with three, and so on.

Returning to my GWG example, that plant employed people with relatively low skills (compared to the specialized tech sector) at a relatively high wage. Those were pretty decent jobs, and allowed the workers to earn a living. Not a great living, but $15-18/hour is okay.

Now they are unemployed and it's going to be next to impossible for them to earn that wage again. Okay, so it's social darwin-ism at work? You can go on at length that those folks should have seen the light years back and spent their spare time learning computer networking or telecommunication technology. Just not reality for most of those people. Those courses would have eaten up their take home pay. And there is the issue of capacity. Many of those folks just are not capable of "transforming" themselves into tech-workers.

It is possible to make "retraining" gains. Years ago I was an instructor in a federal gov't program to take laid off people and teach them entreprenuerial skills. They got 7 weeks of classroom instruction and 45 weeks of mentoring. They got a guaranteed income to help the launch of their business. It was a good program, but lacked start-up capital. That was a big hinderance, so some of us struck out on our own and solved it.

However, the people that succeeded were those that had a high capacity to learn. Those of marginal ability had a great deal more dificulty and were better suited to employment.

It's a complex issue, and part of solving the jobless-growth-recovery is to increase GDP participation for everyone.

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John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

The WORKING poor is the most alienated group we have in the U.S. They work on average of 50 hours a week, they don't have health life or life insurance, rarely get a paid vacation and those that do can't afford to go anywhere and a 401K is completly out of the question.

So with that said why do we do anything at all for the non-working poor?

We need to do for both. We need to make sure that those that want to work, can, and then do not join the working poor disadvantaged group when they do. I have met families that remained on social assistance a little longer than they had to so their kids could get glasses and dental care.

Low income jobs provide no benefits (even under Canada's universal health care, benefits are required for drugs, dental care, eye care, and so on.) and are often exploitive. We've stopped enforcing labour laws with regards to overtime, vacation pay, stat holidays, etc.

We have tried some pilot programs where people wishing to get off SFI (welfare) would continue to recieve their benefits, and the number of people was astounding.

The other thing that people disregard are those with disabilities and their families. We had a family apply for a Land Trust home. They were living on a gov't disability income. The husband seemed like an able bodied young man, so I asked him wahy he wasn't working. His wife has MS, and cannot work. Since they cannot buy a home (can't get a mortgage or save up the minimum $10K down) they have to rent. Well, do you know haw many properly equipped wheel-chair suites there are in Edmonton? Damn few. So, when I met them at their home, I realized the problem. She could not leave the living room. She could do nothing for herself. He had to care for her 24/7. A job? How?

So, we got them into a house and then raised money to make renos for accessability. For the first time in five years the husband went to work. His self esteem soared! For $3000 in renos. One time. Sometimes we miss the problem completely.

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

Don't know about LeBenz, but not only have I done domestic and international charity work with poor folks, I've been one--a poor folk.

So, if I totally agree with LeBenz does that make my opinion any better than his? I don't think so. I think rational argument stands whether it bursts from the heart of a saint or a sinner.

One good solution is better than a dozen, or a thousand people empathizing with my plight.

Botnst

BM,

I guess I should have been more specific. What I intended to say is that the working poor in the U.S. is almost totally ignored while other without a job get benefits. Something should be done to even the score a bit.