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  #31  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:52 AM
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What is a social conscience?

My conscience tells me not to squander resources given in trust. I don't mind paying taxes for things that benefit me indirectly--national defense, regulating trade, ensuring safety and security at home. If people need charity, that's cool too. But charity is not interminable else its slavery--I work for the benefit of a parasite.

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  #32  
Old 11-21-2003, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
My conscience tells me not to squander resources given in trust. I don't mind paying taxes for things that benefit me indirectly--national defense, regulating trade, ensuring safety and security at home.
...is it remotely conceivable that you may directly or 'indirectly' benefit from being surrounded by a healthy, stable, well educated population? What's that worth? A pay-to-play system will NEVER provide this. Your system requires bloated military and prison industrial complexes in order to maintain function --What do these costs subtract from your personal 'bottom-line'.

Wealth and social inequality have burdensome costs. I'm personally not interested in bearing those costs -- they infringe on my personal 'freedom'.
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  #33  
Old 11-21-2003, 12:27 PM
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Interesting argument.

There is a balance to be struck between infringing on my rights and liberty and the needs of society. They are necessarily in conflict. I pay indirectly for every injustice, perceived or real. In this case I deny its necessarily a real injustice.

For example, somebody whom circumstance has left them without the means of helping themselves, I have no problem helping. That is a real injustice. In contrast, a meth'd-out freak with failing health is a perceived injustice.

Why should I be forced to pay for that portion which is a perceived, not real, injustice? That is not justice for me. That is involuntary servitude.
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  #34  
Old 11-21-2003, 01:20 PM
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That is a real injustice. In contrast, a meth'd-out freak with failing health is a perceived injustice.
...it could be argued that there is potentially a long list of contributing factors lthat led to your friend's condition as a 'meth'd-out freak', chief among them a society that maintains high levels of social/wealth inequality.

Even though Mr. Freak may have come from a fairly well-to-do family, he could very easily start running into an economically desperate crowd after experiencing abuse in the home and running away as a teenager. This downward spiral happens all the time (I've observed that very scenario far too many times myself), and the register of 'indirect' costs start piling up. You pay, I pay, we all pay...and pay and pay and pay. Shutting off the public tap only compounds this problem. Meanwhile these folks have kids too...it's a god#$ned vicious cycle that won't be stopped by resorting to more and more punitive measures. All of our available buildable space will end up being devoted to 'adult daycare' facilities, and who's gonna pay for that?

It boils down to: "Do you want to pay now or pay later?" Either way you'll end up paying, but chances are paying later will be exponentially more costly.

Not offering solutions here, just my assessment.
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2003, 03:29 PM
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Ol' Meth-head made his own choices. Let him live and die by them. Rather not pay at all. But if I must, I'd rather it not be to subsidize his mistakes but to incarerate him when he does damage. If he never does, fine, let him meth-around all he wants.....
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2003, 03:51 PM
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Indifference--the last refuge of the scoundrel. I envy you.
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  #37  
Old 11-21-2003, 04:09 PM
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Sorry Zeitgeist, but I must agree with Botnst here. I have a junkie brother as well. He made the choice to ruin his life. I have no pity for him, nor should I be forced to "pay" for his lifestyle choice. Quite frankly, I'm glad that this country doesn't have universal health care. I don't want to pay for the healthcare of either the ultra rich, nor for those who chose to live lives that left them short of being able to support themselves. According to your location, you live in the Pacific Northwest. As you've alluded to, there are plenty of choices of places that provide for you, that which you should be capable of supplying for yourself. If this is to be your chosen lifestyle, more power to you. However, do NOT force me into your idea of a "utopian" life. Please take your pick of any one of the countries that already supply this for you, and set your roots there.
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2003, 04:22 PM
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Please take your pick of any one of the countries that already supply this for you, and set your roots there.
...well golly, this is a right hospitable place we got here.

You're the third forum member who's suggested I kindly remove myself from the country of my birth. One of them offered to pay my way--are you willing to pitch in too?
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  #39  
Old 11-21-2003, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
...well golly, this is a right hospitable place we got here.

You're the third forum member who's suggested I kindly remove myself from the country of my birth. One of them offered to pay my way--are you willing to pitch in too?
Yes, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to find a way for the government to use taxpayer money to get you a first-class ride to whatever social-welfare paradise you'd like to fly to.



I've said this a hundred times, and I'm sure many here, even those who agree, are sick of it, but here goes:

Failure is a choice. Unless you are mentally or physically handicapped in a way that cannot be overcome or compensated for, then you are where you are in life as a result of your choices. And if your choices led you to become a homeless meth-head, then NO, I do not feel sorry for you, and NO, you do not deserve one cent of my hard-earned cash. They made their bed in the gutter, they can lie in it. Call me unsympathetic. Please...I love it. :p

Charity that is coerced by a government is NOT charity.

Mike
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  #40  
Old 11-21-2003, 09:57 PM
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Failure is a choice. Unless you are mentally or physically handicapped in a way that cannot be overcome or compensated for, then you are where you are in life as a result of your choices.
...I feel like I know you so much better now, thanks for sharing dude. That attitude will have society's casualties piling up like cordwood on your doorstep. Like I said, you can 'choose' to pay now, or you can 'choose' to pay later--we all pay at some point along the way.

Ignoring domestic problems doesn't make them disappear--hey wait, you've used that line on me before.

Someone must've turned on the rhetoric recycler...
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  #41  
Old 11-21-2003, 10:02 PM
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Why do we want non-profit hospitals? Did you read the thread in the diesel discussion about whether your car should be serviced at Jiffy Lube? The same principle applies. Why would you want to take your body to the medical equivalent of Jiffy Lube?
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  #42  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:01 PM
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Cost containment is already terrible when insurance helps pay, imagine how much it would cost in taxes if access were free.

Non-profit will do for medicine what it has done for the Postal Service.
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  #43  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:20 PM
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Cost containment is already terrible when insurance helps pay, imagine how much it would cost in taxes if access were free.
...who said anything about free? Nothing is free. Your vaunted 'economic freedom' ain't free. There are costs associated with everything--actual costs and opportunity costs.

Publicly operated universal healthcare systems operate with huge economies of scale. That's in part why Canadians pay less for their drugs. Bulk pricing works--saves money and serves more. Your visceral dislike for the public sector really gets in the way of objectively recognizing a smart approach to fixing a nasty drag on our economy. Hell, even Fox News' Bill O'Reilly recognizes this, and he's on your side.
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  #44  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:21 PM
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Profit motivates. Competition breeds excellence. If a hospital-for-profit is not offering the best service at a reasonable price, they will lose out to the one that does. Why do you wealthy-must-pay, poor-never-pay socialists hate that so much?

Mike
__________________
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  #45  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
...I feel like I know you so much better now, thanks for sharing dude. That attitude will have society's casualties piling up like cordwood on your doorstep. Like I said, you can 'choose' to pay now, or you can 'choose' to pay later--we all pay at some point along the way.
Glad you feel closer to me now.

Why not have them pile up on YOUR doorstep, since you're so excited about paying for everybody else's "misfortunes".

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic
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