Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-18-2005, 08:15 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 3,956
A day at repair shop...or why auto repair is like sausage making

Hi All,

I really didn't want to succumb to bringing my '98 E300 DT to a mechanic as I had previously done most minor auto repair and all maintenance work myself in the past but my unfamiliarity with Diesel combined with the fact that I only bought the car last month made me reconsider finding an experienced shop to do my work, at least for now. So I called around and checked on the board and found a shop outside Boston who specialized in MB and agreed to let me stay and watch while the work was being done. In retrospect, this was a mistake I think, but mostly the shop's mistake because I got a unique opportunity to see "real world" auto repair and didn't really like what I saw.

I won't go into too much detail about what was done, but there were two experiences which made me really upset, and those I will relay;

1) When changing the spin-on fuel filter (i.e. the main filter) they use the old filter to fill the new one with fuel! I saw the guy take the new filter, place it over the old one and turn them over...I could not believe it! I asked about this practice which I thought was extremely bad and I was told "well, you have to understand the practical realities of running a shop, it is just impractical for us to keep fresh fuel on hand to fill these...this is the reason I don't like to let customers stay in the shop..." He assured me that if anything was loose on the "dirty side" of the old filter it transfer only to the "dirty side" of the new one but he felt that by doing it gently nothing would even come loose. I told him that I disagreed with doing it this way...it just seems to me that you don't want ANYTHING but NEW, fresh fuel in the new filter! Even if the crud stayed on the dirty side of the new filter why would you want to start out with a new filter that has some crud or water in it???

2) After replacing my fuel lines it came time to crank the car up and start it. After about 2+ minutes of cranking it was obvious to me that the battery was being drained and the lines were not filling. The tech decided to put the battery on the charger and while he was doing that I decided to double check to see that all of the lines were installed correctly. Fortunately I had brought a diagram with me that I had printed out on the Diesel Discussion board which showed the factory layout for the lines. It turns out that the tech switched two of the lines connected to the Injector Pump. I pointed this out to him and the shop owner and the tech's response was an emphatic "IMPOSSIBLE". Even though I had the factory diagram in front of me he insisted he only took one line off at a time and therefore he claimed he could only have replaced them exactly as they came off (WRONG because I saw him take two off at once).

Now, he was ready to keep on cranking without doing anything else but I insisted that he NOT crank any more until the lines were put the way the diagram showed them. I had to say "look, it's my car and I won't let you burn up my starter trying to pump fuel when I know it is incorrectly piped". I also said I was so sure it was their mistake being the reason the car would not start that I would gladly pay to have the lines put back if it turned out not to result in the car starting. They finally gave in and swapped the lines which fortunately could be done in about 10 minutes without removing the intake manifold again. Sure enough, as soon as they started cranking this time the lines began to fill with fuel and the car fired up about 30 seconds later.

I was the "bigger man" and said "everyone makes mistakes" but their pride was forever bruised. Instead of being thankful for my "saving his bacon" the owner then turned around and said "the reason the tech made that mistake was because he must have been distracted by having you watch him work, we just don't want customers in here for this reason". Well, for me that was the last straw. Blaming ME for their error. I paid my bill and left. A lot was done that day and I was happy to have accomplished all of the repairs I wanted to get done all at once, but I could not help but think that it was the ultimate in nerve to blame THEIR errors on MY presence.

So, now I'll replace the fuel filter AGAIN myself if, for no other reason, so I will be sure that I have a nice clean one to start out with this time around and I'll hope that no permanent damage was done to my starter and I won't go back to this "highly regarded MB shop" ever again.

Auto repair is like sausage making...you don't want to see how it is done, you just want to enjoy the end product. Now that I have seen how it's done I can't ever enjoy it again.

-Marty


Last edited by nhdoc; 02-18-2005 at 11:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-18-2005, 08:59 AM
Fimum Fit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
In the good old days, long ago and far away,

VW diesel mechanics used to fill the new fuel filter with ATF before installing it (but if and only if they were working with a warmed-up motor for easy starting). Not only did the ATF prime the system, but the first rush of full strength ATF would do a great job of cleaning the injectors and the normal cycle of operation of the injection pump quickly thinned the ATF in the filter with #2 from the tank and sent most of the ATF back to the tank where it became just a good quality lubricity and detergent additive. Note, however, that VW doesn't recommend this practice for more recent TDI type motors, and I suspect that the most recent grades of ATF have too high a flashpoint and too much metallic extreme pressure additive for this to be beneficial.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-18-2005, 09:27 AM
MB, love..hate..love..
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 1,173
"Auto repair is like sausage making...you don't want to see how it is done, you just want to enjoy the end product. Now that I have seen how it's done I can't ever enjoy it again."

Personalities aside, yours, the mechanic (the 'tech'), and the foreman, there's a lot of interesting dynamics going on here.

I have to agree that the use of old fuel in the way you describe is not desirable, but it's not a big deal either. And the mistake that he made with the lines would have been corrected eventually, with or without your 'help'. And there is no way I can see there being any significant damage done to either the starter or the battery from the cranking that, I agree, should not have been done in the first place.

I'm imagining you, the customer, standing over this tech, diagrams in hand, scrutinizing his every move, and interrupting at various points to critique his skills. This guy, regardless of his competence, is formally obliged to acknowledge you as his first order 'superior' (customer is always right, right?), right after his real boss, the foreman. All the while, he is expected to carry out his mechanical duties as usual. I think your presence rattled him to distraction, and a simple error (mixing up the lines) has been turned into a condemnation of what goes on in many shops daily.

I'm not a mechanic, but I've been there, done that, and when I'm in Rome, I try to do as the Romans do. If anything, this is a good description of why customers should remain customers when they go to the shop.
__________________
1986 560SL
2002 Toyota Camry
1993 Lexus
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-18-2005, 09:56 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 3,077
Marty, I'd be reluctant to return to that indy too. Their shop practices seem iffy at best. With you watching, I'd expect the tech to be more careful about doing things correctly. Blaming you for his mistake is a real lame excuse. An experienced tech would have marked the lines to eliminate the possibility of swapping them. Your story only confirms my belief that "professional" merely means that you get paid for doing something, not that you have expert skill or competence.
__________________
Fred Hoelzle
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-18-2005, 11:06 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 3,956
I guess my assumption was that while they would "eventually" have discovered the line swapping error it would have taken many more minutes of cranking before they finally gave up and decided to check their work. I mean, of course they would have to eventually fix it since the car was running before they did their work and we all knew that it would have to run again. But cars tell you something when they don't react as expected to changes. I knew, based upon my 25+ years of DIY that if the lines don't fill after 2 minutes of pumping something is WRONG. Don't keep pumping. These "pros" didn't agree. These guys were about to just keep cranking and cranking. Maybe they would have realized the error before doing serious damage to my starter or maybe not. Still, I doubt they would have owned up to it had the starter mysteriously died a day or two after the service had I not been there to witness it.

I guess I am agreeing with them that the biggest mistake was being there, but a close second was not doing the work myself. It's not the money. I can afford to have anyone work on my cars, even the dealerships, but I know from my experiences that rarely do you find a mechanic who does everything the way you would do it yourself - the way THEY might do it if it were their own car and not yours.

And, to the owner's credit he did take 10% off the bill at the end recognizing my "contribution" to solving the problem. I just found it unprofessional to behave as though it was unthinkable that this error would have occurred if I were not there - the only reason they made a mistake was because of ME.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-18-2005, 11:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 508
nhdoc: Even MB dealers are not exempt of making erroneous diagnostic, mistakes and unnecessary repairs.
Last fall, my heater blower motor just quit working when I was 400mi. from home. I stopped at a Benz dealer for help (outside temp. was near 0deg.C) After checking, analyzing the problem , plugging-in various testers, they finally came with a diagnostic....fried blower motor and possibly a fried blower controller.
Thankfully they did not have the necessary replacement parts in stock and I left the place.
When I got back home, I stopped at my independent shop without having an appointment. He just made a quick check in the yard and found within about 30 seconds that the problem was caused by a burned fuse (the flat fuse on the left fender.)
3 minutes and $1.50 later, the blower had magically resuscitated.
Diagnostic at MB dealer : 1.2 hours at $85.00/hour, + shop supply (?)$10.20 + taxes: Total:$120.05
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-18-2005, 11:43 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 3,956
Yeah, don't get me started on Dealerships...that's why I sought out the Indy in the first place. Our local MB dealer was the one who told me the 722.6 transmission could not be serviced and that is was "sealed for life and you could not change the fluid or filter in it without taking it completely apart which would be very costly" (their words, not mine)! After that I decided paying them for their "expertise" was not going to happen
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-18-2005, 11:52 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: roslyn, LI,NY
Posts: 445
why its good to be watching repair if possible.

Ive just got to tell this one: On my 63 corvette split window coupe, was being lifted on lift arms Under the plastic seat floor area!! As the crunching sound became louder, I started screaming, stop, stop the lift!! Instead of the frame , the lifting arms were on the plastic floor areas!. If I hadnt stopped them at that point the arms would bave been through the floor and I guarantee I would have never been told! This happened also (when I wasnt there) on my 450sl 1977, the passenger side floor panel showed tear (behind passenger seat) where a lift arm had been improperly placed. I found this out some time later, and of course no recourse, although i go to only this one shop for my service. So what to do? If you hang around you antagonize the help, if you dont, g--d know what they did to your car! Its a problem. However, I suggest that if shop uses (as most do) moveable lift arms, you try for one with the drive on ramps. Good luck to all, Abe G
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-18-2005, 12:03 PM
G-Benz's Avatar
Razorback Soccer Dad
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Dallas/Fort-Worth
Posts: 5,711
I posted a thread earlier regarding dealer repairs. It could apply to indies as well.

But you would think that a dealership would be obliged to provide better quality of serive on their repairs considering the prices they demand!

But when you consistently get your vehicle back, only to find yet another plastic body or component part broken (and of course denied when queried), it's time to find someone else to do the work!
__________________
2009 ML350 (106K) - Family vehicle
2001 CLK430 Cabriolet (80K) - Wife's car
2005 BMW 645CI (138K) - My daily driver
2016 Mustang (32K) - Daughter's car
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-18-2005, 12:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,971
Fix your own car and don't eat sausage. Good advice!!

MP
__________________
1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-18-2005, 03:23 PM
Fimum Fit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Abe:

When I took over my mother's '73 Mercury Montego GT (Nascar special body) with the 351 CJ motor, the licensed Virginia State safety inspector proceeded to lift it with the front lift arms under the header pipes -- with the sharp, narrow pegs of the lift arms raised. It took a long time to get the header pipes straightened again, but at least I started shouting from outside the shop door before he lifted it high enough to break a motor mount and send the motor through the air induction hood, which was also a rare special part for that model.

I once wrote an article for _Quicksilver_, the journal of the International Mercury Owners' Association, on "My Mother's Mercuries," detailing the modifications my Dad had done to their '50 sedan, their '57 Turnpike Cruiser with the 368 Lincoln Mexican Road Race package on the motor, their '65 Park Lane with Police package suspension and motor, and then this '73 Montego GT. These were my mother's daily drivers, since my father always needed a pickup for the farm and his work, but he sure was proud of his mods.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-21-2005, 01:56 AM
Strider's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Washington
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by donbryce
"Auto repair is like sausage making...you don't want to see how it is done, you just want to enjoy the end product. Now that I have seen how it's done I can't ever enjoy it again."

Personalities aside, yours, the mechanic (the 'tech'), and the foreman, there's a lot of interesting dynamics going on here.

I have to agree that the use of old fuel in the way you describe is not desirable, but it's not a big deal either. And the mistake that he made with the lines would have been corrected eventually, with or without your 'help'. And there is no way I can see there being any significant damage done to either the starter or the battery from the cranking that, I agree, should not have been done in the first place.

I'm imagining you, the customer, standing over this tech, diagrams in hand, scrutinizing his every move, and interrupting at various points to critique his skills. This guy, regardless of his competence, is formally obliged to acknowledge you as his first order 'superior' (customer is always right, right?), right after his real boss, the foreman. All the while, he is expected to carry out his mechanical duties as usual. I think your presence rattled him to distraction, and a simple error (mixing up the lines) has been turned into a condemnation of what goes on in many shops daily.

I'm not a mechanic, but I've been there, done that, and when I'm in Rome, I try to do as the Romans do. If anything, this is a good description of why customers should remain customers when they go to the shop.
Hmmm.....Well, I work in nuclear power, as an engineer (mechanical), and as a trainer. Currently my speciality is in human performance analysis and training. Here's the deal: The mechanic was supposed to be operating in what we call Rule Based Performance space, which means following a procedure. He was instead operating in skill based performance space, commonly called 'skill of the craft'. You ONLY operate in skill based performance when the job is completely obvious, and there isn't a written procedure to follow, something that takes very little conscious thought or attention to the job and the job is highly practiced, often performed (like driving a car or putting your shoes on). In this case there was an existing procedure to follow, and the shop obviously wasn't.

As for the customer distracting the mechanic. Yes, that is an error likely situation. But in those situations, the mechanic is supposed to re-focus and re-zero. In other words, find his place back in his procedure, which may mean going back a few steps to find where he left off and reconfirming. Maintenance workers and mechanics in my plant are constantly scrutinized by system engineers and managers conducting observations...no big deal for the professional.

Now the troubling part is when the mechanic was faced with an unexpected condition: The car did not start. This is where he now is in Knowlege based performance. We train people in my industry that when they are in knowlege based performance space, to GET BACK OUT OF IT!! (Errors are made 50% of the time in this space) Get back into rule based performance by finding a procedure that applies, such as a troubleshooting procedure. Don't procede in the face of uncertainty, with an unanalyzed, unexpected condition. If there is no procedure that applies to this condition, then stop and collaborate, go get help, a peer check.

Too bad that auto mechanics are not trained to the degree that nuclear professionals are, but then willful violations of established procedures in my industry could have serious consequences to public safety, and can result in the violator going to jail....

__________________
On the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who at the dawn of victory, sat down to wait, and waiting -- died
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seattle Repair Shop Suggestions? feltva Vintage Mercedes Forum 6 03-01-2002 10:56 PM
Gainesville Fl repair shop studebaker Tech Help 3 01-02-2002 03:40 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page