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  #1  
Old 04-05-2005, 07:37 PM
Rahulio1989300E's Avatar
V10s & V8s FTW!
 
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The last oil thread EVER*!

*chances of that happening are.....

1 in a 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!

DON'T F$%K WITH A ROCKET SCIENTIST!

Phil Hall is his name.... this is his article!

PART 1:
Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at
Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is
Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our
spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the
Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties
of oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to
guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils
to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new,
after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we
found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000
miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any
you will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts
more research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also
aggressive in racing.
Other notes on motor oils.

Do not run a multi grade oil (10w-30) more then 1000 to 2000 miles -
depending on your driving habits.
This is because a 10w30 oil starts its life as a 10 weight oil and large
polymer chains are added to get the 30 rating. These chains break down very
quickly which produces small chains with an open electron charge at the
ends. These ends attract grim and form sludge.


THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T USE 10W-30 (Unless you change ever 1000 miles...)

Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found
this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and
owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did
not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found
Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard.


The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the
additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in
suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what you pay for.

Part 2:

I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the
junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last
3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils -
synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding
thickeners like polymer chains.

Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000
miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the
synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases
going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics.

Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic
will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY
REDUCED.

NOW I KNOW THAT 15W-50 IN TEXAS WEATHER IN MORNING AND AFTERNOON IS SAFE!!!

A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a
synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the
freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out.
Next test:
DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a of the synthetic oil in an
old frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook
for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will
see why you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to
see the changes in viscosity between the oils.

Part 3:

The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side
at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester
was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils
- cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a
triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is
lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is
then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured
on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme
wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use
this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large
data base.

Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches.
New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference,
but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and
Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - the bigger the badder.
3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing to run Havoline 30 wt, so its
data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188,
and at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better
lubrication properties in the critical areas in your motor then a good 30
wt. All mineral oils follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off
brands have a .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear
scar as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be
slightly different, but not much.

So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the
story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive
package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the reason
synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run intervals of synthetic,
they must have a vastly superior additive package - and they do.
Proof of this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at it in a glass jar - then do
the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look new compared to the dino oil.
I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the longest manufactures oil change interval
- usually 7000 miles. This will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I
change it once a year regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000
miles a year. Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have
a bunch of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going
strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long.

I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). Older
motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger.
Because synthetics don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I would be careful running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil pump. By doing so you may run into cavitation problems - oil gage jumping wildly. Drag racers
experience this often at high RPM. Drop a wt and it will clear up.


I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero wt
Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing this oil,
so apparently they have in some markets. I stand corrected.

Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like
linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all
together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - zero -
don't waste your money.


__________________
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2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)

Last edited by Rahulio1989300E; 04-05-2005 at 07:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-05-2005, 09:15 PM
88Black560SL
 
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When NASA finds out what Phil has been doing in the lab they will put his balls in the Shell tester. But thank you Phil. My 93 Taurus with 203,000 miles at 8000 mile change intervals supports this data.

John Roncallo
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  #3  
Old 04-05-2005, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roncallo
When NASA finds out what Phil has been doing in the lab they will put his balls in the Shell tester.
John Roncallo
Unless I misread this, 4 balls are required for this test.
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  #4  
Old 04-05-2005, 09:24 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manny
Unless I misread this, 4 balls are required for this test.
Yes 2 and 2

John Roncallo
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2005, 10:41 PM
G-Benz's Avatar
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Quote:
These ends attract grim and form sludge...

...The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the
additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in
suspension...

...oil gage jumping wildly.
Very informative study, but rocket-boy needs to take a refresher in spelling!
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  #6  
Old 04-05-2005, 11:13 PM
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G-Benz

I can vouch for Rocket Scientists not being the world's best spellers. Most of us don't even know Excel has a spell-check! Also the grammer is pretty bad too... I hate being the group proof-reader... Dammit Jim, I'm an engineer, not an English Teacher!
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  #7  
Old 04-05-2005, 11:14 PM
Rahulio1989300E's Avatar
V10s & V8s FTW!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roncallo
When NASA finds out what Phil has been doing in the lab they will put his balls in the Shell tester. But thank you Phil. My 93 Taurus with 203,000 miles at 8000 mile change intervals supports this data.

John Roncallo

Man, NO FAIR!, our 1993 Taurus died at 90K but that was because the driveshaft started to grind when going up hill.....
__________________
2006 BMW M5 "Heidi" @ 109,000 miles
2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)
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  #8  
Old 04-05-2005, 11:15 PM
Rahulio1989300E's Avatar
V10s & V8s FTW!
 
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Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by CzarFC
G-Benz

I can vouch for Rocket Scientists not being the world's best spellers. Most of us don't even know Excel has a spell-check! Also the grammer is pretty bad too... I hate being the group proof-reader... Dammit Jim, I'm an engineer, not an English Teacher!
I LUV STAR TREK.
__________________
2006 BMW M5 "Heidi" @ 109,000 miles
2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)
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  #9  
Old 04-05-2005, 11:39 PM
Certifiable
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CzarFC
G-Benz

I can vouch for Rocket Scientists not being the world's best spellers. Most of us don't even know Excel has a spell-check! Also the grammer is pretty bad too... I hate being the group proof-reader... Dammit Jim, I'm an engineer, not an English Teacher!
No kiddin'!
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Over 1,000,000 miles in Benzes, Since66

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  #10  
Old 04-05-2005, 11:55 PM
G-Benz's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CzarFC
G-Benz

I can vouch for Rocket Scientists not being the world's best spellers. Most of us don't even know Excel has a spell-check!!
EXCEL has a spell checker??!
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  #11  
Old 04-05-2005, 11:59 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahulio1989300E
Man, NO FAIR!, our 1993 Taurus died at 90K but that was because the driveshaft started to grind when going up hill.....
I did have to overhaul the transmission at 135K

John Roncallo
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2005, 12:32 AM
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rjk rjk is offline
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Yes, Excel (the spreadsheet) has a spell checker. Look in "Tools".
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2005, 12:36 AM
Rahulio1989300E's Avatar
V10s & V8s FTW!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roncallo
I did have to overhaul the transmission at 135K

John Roncallo
Oh.





I KNEW IT!!!!!

Do you own a newer American car? If so, what is your opinion of it? Have they really improved?
__________________
2006 BMW M5 "Heidi" @ 109,000 miles
2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)
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  #14  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:20 AM
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Even though I agree that synthetic has superior lubricating properties over regular oil, I still use regular oil. Neither my cars nor my driving habits are that demanding to require synthetic. It's like using single malt scotch whiskey in a mixed drink when blended stock will do.
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Last edited by Kestas; 04-06-2005 at 07:43 PM.
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  #15  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:34 AM
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I agree with Kestas. I remember reading a report about testing mineral oil in New York Taxi cabs (severe driving condtions). They took the engines apart after 3000 and 6000 miles and did not find any appreciable differences in engine wear.

5W30 and 10W40 maybe more of a problem than 10W30. I recently switched to 10W30 Mobile 1 Synthetic, only because I have swithced from highway driving to city and wanted to keep the oil change intervals at 5000 miles.

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