Firstly, after picking up my cowl I soon realised that it couldn't be fitted as the plastic clips had all suffered and most had broken... I did try

Anyway, guess what I received and fitted today!? A brand new OE Benz 119 200 00 22.

Note that this unit's bms has the Horton part number 60 2100 013 001 but the SACHS stamp on the rear of the aluminium housing! I've not considered Horton before or how they fit within the dealer supplier relationship but the part number does seem to resemble the Sach's structure, although not directly listed by Sachs - I'll look into Horton later

So, moving on, here are a few pictures:



























Anyone for a closer look at the bms?




Let's start by observing the new VFC:

1. No MB part number on the bms.

2. Horton sticker on the bms

3. Dimensionally identical to my previous VFC

4. Sachs stamped on rear

5. 'Top' marking on the box

6. bms marked TB1577 A-GE-

7. bms looks slightly more 'yellow' than previous

8. Identical cowl design

9. New VFC has significantly less friction. Can spin the fan 1.5-2 turns by hand. My old VFC turned only 0.5 turn.


After some testing today I can report the following:

1. New VFC cuts in at a smidge over 95C, as displayed on my coolant gauge - previous VFC cut in at 85C.

2. Under my normal driving conditions (todays 18C ambient with a mixture of urban and light motorway) coolant temperature stabilised at 90C-95C, VFC NOT locked - perfect engine temperature!

3. I had trouble increasing the coolant temperature to 100C but today I also needed to check exhaust emissions so the cat required a pre-heat - this simply means driving hard in second gear for around 15 minutes . VFC cut in at 95C-98C and the roar was evident.

4. After cat pre-heat conditioning and back to idle, coolant temperature increased to 100C. Car was left idling (waiting for Emissions Inspector) for around 5 minutes. Coolant temperature stabilised at 100C. VFC could be heard switching in and out.


My thoughts:

The new VFC operates perfectly and exactly as described by the MB documentation - a little relief

It does however operate at a slightly higher temperature then my previous VFC, BUT, the previous VFC was refilled (volume was guessed) with an alternative silicone fluid and had no cowl fitted.

So, for now I conclude that for the R129 129.067 (Euro spec) M119.972 a VFC purchased from MB, part number 119.200.022, operates perfectly


Enjoy!

Lea

__________________
'93 R129 500SL-32
'89 190E 2.6 - sold in 2002

http://antron.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/i...nature/Sig.jpg

i think the sticker says norton as in the abrasive company.not sure if that matters, though.

__________________
'95 s500 (bought for wife but can't bear to share!!!) 125kms
'92 legend 180kms
'88 tbirdturbo(fantastic car-only regular maint.)120kms
'87 mustang gt(gone)
'86 tbirdturbo(gone)
'85 mustang gt(gone-but not forgotten)

Lea,

Glad to hear that all ended up well. I never did have any doubt that once you change out your VFC, your coolant temperature will than be back to normal.

I am not clear however as to whether or not you received the newly redesigned VFC or the original design VFC. I will also be extremely interested in knowing whether or not your new bms has the identical bending characteristics as the original bms.

Phil

__________________
'95 E300 Diesel, 264,000 Miles. [Sold it]

Hi daddiojiggy

From the images the sticker looks a little like Norton but I studied it closely and it's definitely Horton - the H is just a funny font that doesn't .jpg very well when using 30% compression.

Take a look at their web site and you'll see Horton is a VFC manufacturer too - although why they sell Sachs VFCs is a little of a mystery! Maybe they have some kind of relationship?

Hi Phil

Good to hear from you again. I have top say I was a little relieved but you I were pretty convinced that it would all be OK - although I paid a significant premium by going to my dealer for the sake of this thread and of course the returns policy.

Regarding the VFC, it's dimensionally identical to my previous unit. MB never carried out a redesign across the range, only for the 119.974/975 engine - the EPC clearly shows this coupled with the 974/975 notes made here way back. Also, by MB providing me a VFC with identical part number '00 22' and dimensions this again demonstrates that no such redesign was made across board. The VFC and cooling design works PERFECTLY in the R129 so no need for change!

According to G.RAU (the bms manufacturer) the bending characteristics (specific deflection) are identical between this 'TB1577 A-GE-' and my previous 'TB1577 -GE' but in the interests of science it would be interesting to repeat yours or Jim's experiments.

I still have my old bms should any one want to try - Jim?


Two things that now interest me:

1. Who and how Horton fit into the equation?
2. That by removing the old cowl/refilling the VFC the cut-in point of the old VFC was lowered to 85C and therefore in normal driving conditions the VFC operated quite regularly
3. The R129 cooling system is as thought, designed to run at 90-95C in most driving conditions and in-fact it's quite difficult to increase it to 100C.

For those W140 drivers suffering temperature issues maybe there's a design issue with the rad?


One thing I want to correct is the previously hypothesised:

This is NOT strictly true and has been proved, so for those with R129.067 M119.072 cars your new MB VFC will operate perfectly keeping your cooling system running at a maximum of 100C (under severe driving conditions) and at 90C-95C for the rest of the time.

(Assumptions made - Ambient 20C)


Lea

__________________
'93 R129 500SL-32
'89 190E 2.6 - sold in 2002

http://antron.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/i...nature/Sig.jpg

I new I'd seen the name Horton before...


Unfortunately this means we still can't identify the VFC Sachs PN as the last three digits on the Hoton sticker are 001! Although I'd put money on it being identical to the Sachs 031.

Lea

__________________
'93 R129 500SL-32
'89 190E 2.6 - sold in 2002

http://antron.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/i...nature/Sig.jpg

Well, it's now quite hot here in the UK (30-35C ambient) and the VFC and cooling system is operating perfectly. Coolant temperature remains at 88-93C (as displayed by IC gauge) and the VFC only cuts in occasionally. In fact I have to drive the car like a luney to actually get the temperature above 95C (the cut in point of my VFC)

Urban or motorway driving leaves the gauge at 85C-93C, so replacing the VFC was expensive but in the end turned out to be a far superior solution to 'topping' up my dead one!

Lea

__________________
'93 R129 500SL-32
'89 190E 2.6 - sold in 2002

http://antron.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/i...nature/Sig.jpg

Hi,
I have a 96 E230 W210. My car's temp was usually running at 95-100 even in cold weather. My mechanic said it was a faulty clutch fan.
I just went to an aftermarket Mercedes parts shop and sold me a TRUCKTEC visco fan which they claimned as a TROPICALIZED version. it is a replacement (made in Germany) part with a mercedes part number reference.
The part is cheap at around $92. The Sachs version was a lot more expensive.

Now, the car runs at 80-82 even in traffic with the A/C on.

Help, my 99 E300 turbo diesel AC won't blow any cold air, i think the fan clutch don't kick in when i cut on the AC. the Freeon guage is showing to be okay.

Dragging this thread up from the dead (sorry, everyone). Back when this thread was active, I only owned one M119 engine and didn't have any fan clutch issues, so I probably didn't even read it back then.

Now I own a half-dozen M119's and have spent a lot of time fiddling with them. I have found that only a couple of my M119 OE fan clutches engage as they should, i.e. by 95-100°C coolant temp, in warmer climates. A couple were completely dead and never engaged at any temp. Please keep in mind that the M119 fan clutch engages based on AIR TEMPERATURE, not coolant temperature. This means that in cold climates, the engine temp could be 100-110° and not engage the fan clutch, even with a perfect cooling system and perfect fan clutch. This is noted in the M117 FSM, see attached PDF file, read the "Caution" note on the last page... also note that the clutch is designed to be decoupled below approx 95°C coolant temp.

Anyway, I started doing some more scientific testing which was not mentioned in this thread, i.e. what the actual fan RPM's are relative to the drive pulley. I quickly found that this proved that some of the FSM data is wrong... the FSM indicates the engine RPM is higher than fan RPM, but this is backwards. The crank pulley is larger than the fan pulley, so the fan RPM is always higher than engine RPM. Click here to view the FSM detalis on the M119 clutches, please look at all five pages in the PDF file and see my embedded notes.

Bottom line, my "good" fan clutches operate like LeaUK's. They are engaged by approx 90-95°C coolant temp on warm days, decouple by approx 3800 engine RPM, and re-couple when engine speed is reduced to approx 3000rpm. Contrary to previous opinion stated in this thread, with the AC operating, the additional heat given off by the condenser may cause the clutch to engage even at a relatively low coolant temp (80-85°C)... yes, a LOWER coolant temp, not a HIGHER coolant temp. That's because the AC condenser is giving off heat which increase the air temp at the clutch face (BMS), even though the electric fans are usually on. I've seen this repeatedly on my cars, with the AC on the mechanical clutch may be engaged at 80°C coolant temp on a warm day (with AC), but not engaged at 90-95°C coolant temp on a cool day (no AC).

Side note: Fitchell-Sachs was bought out by Horton, and new OE "Genuine Mercedes" M119 fan clutches will arrive with the Horton markings as shown in the photos above. They are still using the Sachs design and probably built in the same manufacturing facilities, it's just a different name on the unit & box. They are identical physically and visually.

Now, the aftermarket clutches are a completely different animal... the ACM clutch seems to work fairly decent, although it decouples at a higher RPM than stock (possibly because ACM made the mistake of accepting the FSM docs as accurate, which they are not, as noted above). Avoid the no-name dirt-cheap junk clutches on eBay & elsewhere, there was a report (with photos) of those splitting in half in 200 miles. (!) The ACM, and most other aftermarket clutches, require a shorter bolt to install - see pics at link below. The ACM is $125-$150, OE is $550-$750, so if you choose to install a new $50 clutch - don't be surprised if it blows up and causes more damage than the $100 you thought you saved.


Detailed photos of the M119.974/.975 (400E/500E) fan clutches:
http://www.w124performance.com/images/M119/fan_clutch_119-200-01-22/

Link to forum thread with additional information & discussion on these clutches:
http://www.*********.com/forums/showwiki.php?title=Viscous_Fan_Clutch

Attached Files

20-320.pdf (218.8 KB, 139 views)

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

Data copied & pasted from other thread. Testing was done in summer in 70-90F ambients, as needed to ensure the clutch was or was not engaged, for testing purposes.


Car #2 - Bad Clutch:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~810rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~275rpm (only ~35% lockup).
With the engine at 1500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~1900rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~500rpm (only ~25% lockup).
With the engine at 2500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~3200rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~500rpm (only ~15% lockup).
NOTE: The "bad clutch" test results were the same regardless of engine temp or ambient temp.


Car #3 - Good clutch, NOT engaged:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~800rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~325rpm (~40% lockup).
With the engine at 1500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~1900rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~410rpm (~22% lockup).
With the engine at 2500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~3100rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~980rpm (~32% lockup).

Car #3 - Good clutch, engaged:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~800rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~775rpm (97% lockup).
With the engine at 1500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~1900rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~1750rpm (92% lockup).
With the engine at 2500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~3200rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~2600rpm (81% lockup).


Conclusion: With a defective M119 fan clutch, the fan is spinning slower at freeway speeds than it does with a good (engaged/coupled) clutch at IDLE.

Wow . . revived after all of this time . . .

It's interesting that you actually got a few"good" ones . . . I've tested a number of them during this thread and my tech at Exclusive Motors has tested "hundreds" of them and never had one work as spec'd.

Yes, indeed it does operate by air . . . specifically air temperature, not coolant temperature but that didn't sink home to anyone. Check post #23! Why do you think I tested one in water complete with pictures in post #109. It should be obvious to all but wasn't! .

Tnx for the info on ACM . . . a VFC that just might work. I'll keep it in mind if I replace my VFC.

__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

I just read a few threads regarding rebuilding a vfc. Apparently there is a silicone oil in the fan clutch.....instead of putting a xxx weight of silicone oil had anytime tried to put a heavier weight motor oilinside the vfc, like 20w-50? Just curious to see if it would be any difference between the silicone and the motor oil.

__________________

1990 190E 3.0L