Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-10-2005, 09:26 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 104
Replaced Spark Plugs...and wow!! what a difference!

I had noticed my car not responding as well recently. When coasting at around 40pmh, if I openned the throttle wide, the car would hesitate to speed up. Also my car was running very sluggishly, vibrating in a word. What I had previously believed to be a fuel filter related problem, turned out to be my spark plugs that I had replaced when I bought the car with NGK TR5GPs. This was last July (2004) I have driven about 30K since. Well I figured I might as well check out the plugs, turns out that plugs 3 and 6 and a lot of gunk and seemed oily. While the others had little or no gunk and werent oily. They were dry and had a greyish residue over them.

Well I replaced the plugs with Bosch platniums. And the car responds a lot LOT better to sudden acceleration.

I am just curious why only the plugs from cylinder 3 and 6 were dirty and not the rest?

__________________
190e 2.6 1990. 300,000 KM
C230 K 2000, 130,000 KM
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-10-2005, 09:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykg4orce
I
I am just curious why only the plugs from cylinder 3 and 6 were dirty and not the rest?
You 'may' not want to find out. Could indicate valve problems .... among others

cheers, guenter
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-10-2005, 11:31 PM
yal's Avatar
yal yal is offline
Benz-smart
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: New York, Long Island
Posts: 2,706
I would consider using non plats. The spark on the plats isnt that big and that could lead to your fouling problem.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-10-2005, 11:42 PM
fahrgewehr2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 1,264
The plats are a no-no. Use only what the owner's manual suggests.

Your fouling problem will eventually return. The rear most plugs are fouling first, no?
__________________
'90 300SE 298k
-300K and it gets put into retirement.
'80 300D 255k Purchased new by family in 1980.

Had a:
1973 220 (gas)
1980 300SD
1992 400E
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-11-2005, 12:34 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,143
YOU SHOULD NOT USE RESISTOR PLUGS ON MERCEDES!!! The ignition system is very carefully designed for use with non-resistor plugs. Resistor plugs add secondary resistance is excess of design specs and alter the secondary voltage wave form.

Sooner of later you will have problems such as rough idle or high emissions.

The proper plug is Bosch H9DC (NOT the HR9DC resistor type), and these are not commonly available at McParts, but are readily available for two bucks each from Mercedes parts specialists like Fastlane, which sponsors this site.

Any spark plug with an "R" in the designation is a resistor type and should NOT be used.

Duke
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-11-2005, 01:24 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 104
Ok understood, I changed to non-R type I believe but I will double check.
__________________
190e 2.6 1990. 300,000 KM
C230 K 2000, 130,000 KM
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-11-2005, 02:05 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 104
OK I found out that the plugs I bought were HR9DPX Bosch Platinum. But what I do not understand is why these plugs were listed in the car parts catalogue as the appropriate plugs for this car. Also when I originally bought the NGK plugs, from NAPA parts, they looked it up in their system and sold me these plugs. So are the major retailers are not aware of this resistance problem????
__________________
190e 2.6 1990. 300,000 KM
C230 K 2000, 130,000 KM
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-11-2005, 04:07 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 482
Most parts places are supposed to know better then to sell platinum plugs and what not for cars that aren't made for it. Problem is, Bosch and other companies are giving McParts better deals on plugs if they sell more platinums. Bosch double and quad plats usually get the salesperson a little comission too. The parts store IS able to get H9DC0's... you just need to ask them to order em. If they say they can't get them, they just don't feel like doing a special order.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-11-2005, 08:10 AM
blueeagle289's Avatar
Blue Eagle
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 457
Talking Platinum and copper plugs

I don't understand the purist approach to plugs in Mercedes. I have installed Plus 2 and Plus 4 plugs in lots of cars, including Mercedes and never have a problem with the car's performance in any way. The fact that a plug has platinum coatings does not mean it is harmful; it just means it should last longer ..... My experience with the platinums has been good.....
__________________
Ben Harrison Carter
1999 Mercedes ML320 87K
1992 Mercedes 300CE 89K
1995 Corvette 29K -- Sold Dec 09
1989 Mercedes 420SEL 99K -- (Sold 4/08)
1968 Mercedes 230S (106K) (Sold 9/06))
1976 Mercedes 450SEL 130K (Just sold - 06)
1961 Mercedes 220Sb (sold years ago)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-11-2005, 12:39 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,143
The issue is not "platinum" versus conventional copper core plugs. It's resistor versus non-resistor and Bosch Platinums HAVE RESISTORS. This must be the sixth time in the last year I've made this point!

Most aftermarket manufacturers list resistor plugs for Mercedes which have non-resistor plugs as OE. They just don't care. Most don't offer non-resistor plugs in the correct heat range and geometry, so they just list resistor type plugs.

Take a look at the service CDs. They have several examples of both normal and anamolous of secondary wave form traces and show at least one with excess secondary resistance. It may not result in any noticeable difference when the plugs are new, but as they age - wear and build up deposits, the number of misfires will increase resulting in more idle roughness and higher emissions than if the proper non-resistor plugs are used.

Bosch H9DCs (for M103 engines) cost about two bucks each and have a normal service life of 30K miles. The H9DC0 has a "heavy duty" electrode. They were OE, but they are more expensive, and the standard electrode H9DC work just as well over the 30K service interval.

Spending more money to by the WRONG plug is just plain foolish!

Duke
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-11-2005, 02:21 PM
Mike Murrell's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,574
I agree with Duke's last comment...H9DCO vs. H9DC.

I've used both and actually got better gas mileage and a smoother idle with the cheaper H9DC.
__________________
Mike Murrell
1991 300-SEL - Model 126
M103 - SOHC
"Fräulein"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-11-2005, 02:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,141
Yea,

When I worked in a shop- we always put in OE plugs. So mercedes got copper core bosch plugs, Jap stuff got NGK's, Jags have Champions etc. I think it was the 930's which had the thick electroid plats which were expensive. Never had problems except stocking would have been easier with one companies product.
I understand at the user end, someone looks up a plug and it "fits". That doesn't mean it is equivlent. I seem to remember turbo cars had more problems with bosch platinums than others. Seems the platinum heat range(look in the back of the bosch catalog) is over a larger range than a standard plug. So, I'm guessing, it fit the size and range but was not centered and performance problems erupted.
blueEagle289. The M103 engine seems sensitive with it's ignition system. May not matter as much on the newer stuff,so your experience maybe fine for later engines... but not the M102/103.

Michael
__________________
Michael McGuire
83 300d
01 vw A4 TDI
66 Chevy Corsa
68 GMC V6 w/oD
86 300E
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-11-2005, 06:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Murrell
I agree with Duke's last comment...H9DCO vs. H9DC.

I've used both and actually got better gas mileage and a smoother idle with the cheaper H9DC.
When the spark initiates a tiny flame kernel, the spark plug electrodes represent a BIG COLD HEAT SINK relative to the 4500F temperature of that tiny flame kernel, and the flame can be quenched by a big heat sink, which results in a misfire.

"Fine wire" electrode plugs - usually "double platinum" - both the center and fine wire ground electrode can be advantageous in high performance engines with marginal ignition energy, but this harks back to the days of mechanical breaker points. Modern electronic systems going back to the seventies have at least double the per spark energy of breaker point systems. I've seen plugs come out of mid-seventies GM products with HEI systems where the center electrode was worn nearly to the insulator and you had to measure the gap with a ruler, but the engine basically ran fine. When you have a "fancy" ignition system, you don't need anything more than a plain vanilla two-dollar spark plug.

So conventional electode plugs work very well with modern ignition systems. These Bosch Platinum plugs that are heavily advertised and sold at McParts are junk and defy every theory of ignition and flame propagation because all those ground electodes are a HUGE heat sink to an incipient flame, so there are going to be more misfires, which eventually means rougher idle and over the limit HC emissions.

Bosch is really prostituting their name by selling junk like this along with the "fake Bosch" oil filters at Autozone. It used to be a name you could trust, but now you have to verify which distibution channel their parts come through, and if it's McParts, beware.

The same argument applies to the H9DC0 because of the larger electrodes, and I'm not sure why Mercedes used them as OE because the standard size electrode H9DC performs well and will easily make 30K miles unless you have high oil consumption or a fuel mixture problem.

Duke
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-12-2005, 01:53 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,538
Just to add to Duke's comments about platinum plug issue,

I have about 10 years of The Star magazine, and the technical editor wrote a very informative article about platinum plugs, and why they are specifically not recommended on engines that weren't designed with these plugs in mind.

The article specifically referred to M104 and M103 engines.

This does not apply, however, to engines that were designed with these plugs in mind, like M112 and M113 engines.
__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-12-2005, 05:34 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,143
If there were non-resistor platinum plugs available for M103 and other Merc engines of the era whose ignition systems are specifically designed for non-resistor plugs there would be no issue, but the heavily advertised and widely available "Bosch Platinum" spark plugs are only available in resistor type, and resistor versus non-resistor remains the fundamental issue.

All the redundant ground electrodes on the multielectrode versions are also a major issue and further reason not to use these plugs.

Duke

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wow...installed new glow plugs and Bundt Wheels! 240-diesel Diesel Discussion 1 02-14-2004 11:50 PM
1999 ML320 spark plugs & fuel filter replacement mdante ML, GL, G-Wagen, R-Class, Unimog, Sprinter 2 10-27-2003 05:24 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page