"VVVVRRRR" sound on first AM startup until oil pressure needle reaches "3". - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Hatterasguy · #16 02-20-2006, 05:32 PM

Dude you have been on this forum for years. Everyone told you the gas V8's needed their chains replaced every 100k or so, and it would cost $1k.

Next time buy a new one with a warranty and you won't have to spend money fixing it.

86560SEL · #17 02-22-2006, 11:41 PM

You are right- I did know about the chains needing replaced to prevent engine damages and maybe even the tensioner (later on), but I do not recall reading anything before about the "rails" and "upper guides". The tensioner is really what is in question now. I honestly do not remember alot about that either. The additional changing of the rails/guides seem to almost double the price of just having chains/tensioner replaced.

Also too- I am not really too concerned about the chains, because I was later led to believe (by several local shops) that the chains were OK if there was no rattling from the front of the engine- which there is not. Me finding out about the rails/guides needing to be changed out too seemed to surface after I bought the car and did futher investigating and that is when I found out that it was going to be about $500 or more additional. Sorry- I did not mean to upset anyone about that. That was not my intentions.

Actually, I can have the chain and tensioner replaced for $550. rather than $1000. Honestly though, I do not remember reading where it had to be changed every 100K. Personally, I think it seems crazy to have to change a chain that often- especially on a premium make of car... even timing belts last longer than that on lesser priced cars. I always thought a chain was supposed to last longer. I now nothing lasts forever, but even timing belts have a typical mileage interval of 60K up to 120K, depending upon the car/truck.

My dads 88' Nissan actually had 210K on the original timing belt before it was changed. We are sure, because my uncle had bought it brand new and he said he had never changed it.

. $1000 seems like a lot for something only lasting 100K miles, but if they must.

Personally, I would not mind spending $500 or even $1000 for a new chain/tensioner, but not really an additional $500-1000 for rails/guides. Especially considering the miles on the car- who knows how long other parts of the engine will last? Knowing my luck- I would put in new chains/rails/tensioners/guides and something else would happen.

Lets just hope that it is not the tensioner causing this noise and it is something like the PS pump. Even when I changed the oil last month- after I started it with the new oil - it did not make this noise, which makes me think it may be something else. The sound came on too quickly I think, unless these things just start making this noise out of the blue, rather than gradually.

You are right too about buying a new car. I have seriously considered that, but I really like this car, so I think it best I just drive it until it stops going.

Thanks. Carry on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguys

Dudes, you have been on this forums for years. Everyones told you the gas V8's needed their chain replaced every 100k or so, and it would cost $1k.

Next times buy a new one with a warranty and you won't have to spend money fixing it.

jhodg5ck · #18 02-23-2006, 08:27 AM

You are playing w/ FIRE not changing your chain/rails/tensioner/oil line clips. So you save 500$, when one of the rails cracks and you jump time it's going to be 5K in repairs. Penny wise pound foolish. Waiting for a chain to make noise is not recomneded..I've had more then one car come in w/ jumped timing and never a peep from the chain before it let go.

In reality it's not so much the chains that let go, it's the 20 year old plastic guides cracking..but if you feel that your car is above the experience of countless techs and Mercedes engineer's that's OK.

Not sure who is doing your work but to feed a chain in and replace a tensioner will take about an hour..maybe. It's the rails that require time and effort.

Mercedes last because they have a rigorous maintenance schedule...not prescribing ot that schedule just lumps your car in to the 'just another old, worn out Mercedes' crowd.

Jonathan

86560SEL · #19 02-23-2006, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the additional advice. Actually, the quote I got was from a local independent MB repair/sales shop. I know its crazy, but I am hoping since the car is nearly 22 years old, that the rails have at least been changed once. Surely the chain/tensioner has, but who knows when. It was the tensioner in question, now we are discussing the rails, which are even more $$$ to replace.

Hatterasguy · #20 02-23-2006, 10:29 AM

Part of owning an old high end car is spending a lot of money keeping it on the road.

Ferrari's need timing belt changes on a regular bassis and they run about $5k. So what I'd rather driving a 512BB then a Civic.

If you cannot fix things yourself these cars are not practical to own unless you can afford to write large checks on a regular bassis. The timing chain and rails is probably a weekend job with maybe $500 in parts.

mctwin2kman · #21 02-23-2006, 12:43 PM

Think of the money spent this way! Well you paid $1000 for the car. You may need to put $100-$1500 of work into it to make it run for another 100,000 miles. Well if we take into account that without this car you may have a car payment on a newer vehicle of about $200 for 5 years then spending $1000-$1500 to keep the older car running for another 3 years or more is pennies compared to 5 years of car payments. Or 5 years of car payment on a car warrantied for 3/36 and then needing to pay for parts and labor for the last 2 years of your loan as well. $1500 is less than 8 car payments. Not to shaby if she last another 3-4 years after you have the work done.

420 SE · #22 02-24-2006, 06:18 AM

I've just had (got it back today) my chain, rails and tensioner replaced.

As Jonothan said, it's not the chain and tensioner - but the rails that go brown and brittle.

Mine had cracked one and the piece had turned and wedged putting tension on the chain.

My mech said it was one of the luckiest things he had ever seen - that it hadn't destroyed the engine.

All up cost me $1000 AUD (about $730 USD).

If I had my dig camera I would post a pic of the toffee colored rail that broke.

In fact he said they really only do the chain and tensioner 'cause they are in there - although without the wedging of the broken bit there was some chain stretch.

Cheap PM in comparison to a new engine.

18 yo car with 197,000kms on the clock.

86560SEL · #23 02-24-2006, 11:34 PM

Oh, that sounds bad. Luckily you got them replaced.

That was one thing I discussed with the "MB tech". He said that if the rail(s) do break, it is not a 100% chance that it will ruin the engine. He said only if a piece of rail got lodged between the chain and gears. I guess this is why I was willing to take a gamble with the rails. For all I know- they may have been changed before.

My main concern was the tensioner, since it was mentioned that it may be what is causing this sound when I start it for the first time of the day. I had no idea that this sound I was hearing could have been the tensioner- as the sound started one day out of nowhere.

I would not mind spending $500 - or even $1000 on getting the chain/tensioner/rails changed, but as mentioned in another post- my car has a faint knocking at low RPMS upon acceleration (between 1500-2000 rpms it seems). I NEVER got a response, so I was assuming that it was obviously not a big concern. I did not read ANYWHERE on here about any complaints of a older V8 Mercedes knocking, but knowing my luck- I would have the only one in the world with a serious knock. I have heard a lot about carbon knock, but I do not know if this is what it is.

So, with that said, you may see why I am hesitant to put big $$$$ into this engine just for the chain/tensioner/rails with this other noise. What if I spend $1000 on it and then something else happens? Then I am out $2000. When I bought the car- the owner did not tell me about the knock. Probably did not even notice it, because TWO mufflers had holes and it was rather loud. I did not even hear it until I had new mufflers installed. My dad listened and he said he thought it was just the lifters I was hearing- but I think it is something different. It may be nothing- I have put over 1000 miles on it and it has gotten no worse, but with that said- I suddenly remember why I was so hesitant about buying a old MB. I was terrified of getting a bad one. I just hope this is not the case. I am going to change the oil, (get out the Rotella 15W-40) and put in a thicker, regular oil, use a MB filter and see if it stops that "VRRR" sound on first startup and the knock. Perhaps it is even that PS hose/pump making the noise. If not- I will probably have the knock checked at a shop and if it is something serious- I will not replace chains/tensioner/rails and drive it until it locks up- then buy a new Kia with a 20 year / 200,000 warranty, or buy another Lexus, or MB.

EricSilver · #24 02-25-2006, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86560SEL

I am going to change the oil, (get out the Rotella 15W-40) and put in a thicker, regular oil, use a MB filter and see if it stops that "VRRR" sound on first startup and the knock.

If you are concerned about cleaning the engine, spend a few extra dollars on Mobil 1. Regular oil will only mask the problem. A good, warm, Mobil 1 bath would probably be beneficial for your car right now.

I have been on Mobil 1 for about a month and it seems to have done a good job of cleaning my engine. The startup groan from the oil pump is gone (at least down to 30-degree weather), oil pressure is higher, the oil pressure gauge is not nearly as erratic as it used to be, and a somewhat strong chemical smell from the engine bay has been eliminated. I will see just how dirty or clean oil is after the next change in a week or so. (In my case, I seriously neglected oil changes so I know I have/had a sludge & dirt issue that was causing the afrementioned behaviors.)

Did you ever determine whether you had a power steering leak?

86560SEL · #25 02-25-2006, 08:36 PM

Thanks. No, I have not had a chance to check that power steering hose - what, with working like crazy and all.

I am going to try to check that this week.

I really did not have intentions of "cleaning" the engine, until I changed the oil right after I bought it. The oil was EXTREMELY dirty and the filter was as old as Methuselah. Then I was told I should use Rotella T for about 1000 miles- which is about how many miles it has been. I think I will change it on Thursday. What grade of Mobil 1 should I use? I prefer to use a thicker oil if possible. I want to increase my oil pressure at idle when it is warm as well. Sometimes it goes below the point of where I am comfortable of it being.

Should I use 20W-50, or stick with 15W-40?

Thanks again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricSilver

If you are concerned about cleaning the engine, spend a few extra dollars on Mobil 1. Regular oil will only mask the problem. A good, warm, Mobil 1 bath would probably be beneficial for your car right now.

I have been on Mobil 1 for about a month and it seems to have done a good job of cleaning my engine. The startup groan from the oil pump is gone (at least down to 30-degree weather), oil pressure is higher, the oil pressure gauge is not nearly as erratic as it used to be, and a somewhat strong chemical smell from the engine bay has been eliminated. I will see just how dirty or clean oil is after the next change in a week or so. (In my case, I seriously neglected oil changes so I know I have/had a sludge & dirt issue that was causing the afrementioned behaviors.)

Did you ever determine whether you had a power steering leak?

EricSilver · #26 02-25-2006, 09:14 PM

I use 15W 50.

After you add it, the engine may seem to be behaving oddly, particularly on startup, and you may hear some lifter tapping. After a few days, the lifter tapping will go away, and after about two weeks, as the engine is cleaned, you will notice the groaning will be gone -- if that is indeed the cause, and if there really is that much dirt and sludge.

Today I discovered some seepage from the valve cover. I only noticed it because the area of the engine within a few centimeters of the valve cover is becoming silvery again, as the seeping oil loosens away the dirt and grime. I knew to expect some minor leakage, but this is an unexpected benefit! Every few days I will wipe away the loosened dirt until that whole valve area is clean and silvery.

(The dipstick is showing absolutely no loss, so this leakage is very insignificant.)

You might see an immediate improvement in oil pressure, which will drop a bit as the filter gets dirty. My car used to hover around 1.3 when hot. After the switch to Mobil 1 and a new filter, it stayed at 1.8 to 2.2. As the filter is now becoming dirty, it is at 1.5 to 1.8.

I am hoping that after two or three more short term Mobil 1 changes the engine will be acceptably clean. But I will stay with it thereafter since I am so pleased with the results.

86560SEL · #27 02-26-2006, 12:58 AM

When hot- my oil needle is around 1.0 - 1.3 at idle in park and sometimes near " 0 " when in drive, IF the engine temperature is above 80*C. If it is below 80*C, it is around .5 (halfway between 0 and 1 ).

Definitely worrysome, but according to the owners guide- it should be around .3 . I am assuming this is when idling in drive when hot? When I accelerate, by 1500 rpms- it is back up to around the 2.8 - 3.0 mark, when the temp is above 80*C. When the outside temp is above 65*F, it usually goes around 85*C. I need a new tank cap, because the seal is broken and I have a high fluctuation of engine temperature. On the highway- it is often around 50*-60*C and in town it will often stay around 60*-70*C.

I need to change out the green coolany anyway very soon, but that is another story.

I am hoping that new oil and a MB filter (rather than the cheap one on it now) will stop that. My uncle said that the MB filters have an "anti-drain back" valve, but the cheap ones do not? I do not know if this is true, but it may explain why it was not doing this with the old filter. I know that the Toyota filters have anti-drainback valves, but I do not even know if they were necessary on the MBs, due to different design? I am clueless.

420 SE · #28 02-26-2006, 03:21 AM

Interestingly, MB AU recommend Mobil 1 as the oil to use, my mech said (on replacing the oil after doing the chain etc) that he will only use dino oil in the 126s and older.

His take is the synth oils weren't really around when the engine was designed and he prefers to go with dino oil for them.

May be hogwash but thats his take on it.

BTW - my engine is now sooooo quiet with the new chain and rails and even he didn't think there was a lot of chain noise prior to the change.

Feels like it has a bit more pulling power as well - go ahead - get it done, do your sums and work out the relative cost v a new car, it all works out.

Cheers

EricSilver · #29 02-26-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86560SEL

On the highway- it is often around 50*-60*C and in town it will often stay around 60*-70*C.

Sounds like your thermostat is also stuck open.

86560SEL · #30 02-27-2006, 10:55 PM

Could be - thanks. If the new tank cap does not help, I will also install a new thermostat. I also am going to change out the green coolant soon.

I had mentioned this sound was like a "VVVRRR", but actually, I should have put "ZZZRRR". Sometimes sounds are difficult to describe.

If I can eliminate that knocking, or can confirm that it is nothing major, I will change out the tensioner/chains/rails, if the new oil filter/oil does not eliminate this noise.