DJNEWK2


What type of class did you have that you had all the problems with in two years?..you never eluded to the exact model
In regard to the old cars I agree the materials were top notch...but with the newer cars you have so much more complexity and by nature that usually means more problems....consider the year 560SEL that you own..I am sure if you had the same year 300SDL you would have spent less on maintenance and definitely less on fuel...as the SDL was a simpler car than the one you own...so why didn't you buy and SDL rather than the SEL....more power ,more features,better stereo..etc..etc

with the newer cars you get better acceleration,handling,a multitude of airbags and finally a good stereo(well for MB anyway)

so there you have the law of averages...more complexity ..more probelms....but you could always get a 240D....if you truly want bulletproof


my .002


Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio

Mine was an S500 and it wasn't so much a BAD car, its just that I'm personally a fan of the older MB's because you see the newer ones all over the place and it gets to the point that I'd see em all over the highway like civics! When I park my "classics" next to a newer benz, it would get more compliments than the new one because the new one was so "hum-drum" in atlanta. I like the fact that you can't just walk into any showroom and pick up any of my cars (and look THAT good) so I just drive em around with the chrome shining and the paint sparkling! I never pass up a good deal so that was the reason I got the S500...at the same time, I got bored with it and made more than I paid for it and as for the 560, got it for next to nothing and have enjoyed the fact that I can take a fraction of what I would pay a month on a note to do mods to my 560 which I have... So far she's had 18,19, and 20 inch wheels and my bodykits on the way... The bodykit I'm putting on her is here: http://www.waldusa.com
just click on the 126 kit and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about when I say that I like driving a "rare" looking MB that you can't just get at the dealer

__________________
1997 E320
1986 560SEL
1983 300SD
1972 220D
1970 250C SOLD
1971 250C SOLD

You say that my generalized assertions using third party sources are no good and you defend this by use of personalized arguments about your 2001 car or "a friends"! Talk about flawed logic, you take the cake.

MwMB, you are judging an 7-8 year old car by using YOUR new 2001 car, saying that; Does the fact DCAG changed some interior materials "prove" that the 220 is overall inferior to the 140? I don't think so. So because MwMB says so, it's gospel? If the short term quality is poor, it has a definite effect on the LT reliability!

That was bad enough but then you say: The engines are all upgraded (more power, better mileage, lower emissions, less maintenance) and the new car has many more standard safety features and generally better performance. Since when does better performance conclusively point to LT reliability! Obviously, you don't understand that.

You need to realize that you are NOT in a position to make this call, certainly by using your present-day-arguments. Wait 7-8 years and then we can compare the two cars overall reliability.

But I'm sure you will not!

__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

This argument is as old as the hills.

Back in 1986, many of our local MB faithful were writing everyday to MB Canada lamenting the lack of quality in the new W124 300E. The called it plasticky and tinny. They pointed out it's complexity (ABS, air bags) and cried that the DIY group had been left behind. Of course, today, many pine for the "good 'ol W124" and denounce the W210.

The W140 and W220 are very dissimilar cars. One thing we have to keep in mind was the sales disaster that the W140 was. It never came close to selling the kind of volume that the W126 did, and Mercedes struggled with the model, trying to make money on it. I'm certain they vowed not to make the same error with the W220. And that's why the W220 is nothing like the W140.

I like the W140. It's handsome, imposing, and drives like no other car, including the W220. Paragon of reliability? Huh? Even the most devout W140 fan would have to admit that the W140 is one hulluva expensive car to maintain out of warranty. If you want Maytag reliability, buy a Corolla. Long term operating costs for the Lexus V-8 cars are as high/higher than the comparable MB.

Is the W220 better? We don't know. Time will tell. The one thing I do know is that both our local dealers love them, as they sell MUCH better than any model year of the W140 did. And with three model years on the road, I haven't seen any disassembled in the shop waiting for parts, like I did the W140 cars.

One thing that free-market proponents always talk about is the concept of "voting with dollars." Well, so far, the W220 is winning that battle of the W140/W220 war.

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

"Long term operating costs for the Lexus V-8 cars are as high/higher than the comparable MB."

John are you sure about this statement?......is a 140 a comparable MB?...if so I am sure you are wrong

I am sure the 126 outsold the 140...but I think some were so put off by the 140's price...and then 126 didn't have the Lexus LS400 to compete with for the most part...I think the LS 400 completely shook up the price/value equation and made people seriously look at MB's "price be damned " strategy ...and at the same time he comes MB with the introduction of the 140...at a price that was in the stratosphere...so I think you need to consider market conditions
If the 220 had been introduced as a huge quality of materials improvement over the 140 I think the price would have been 25-35K more money....I think at that price sales would have been affected negatively

another factor here is so many of the early 140's had so many problems right off the bat....I think many people believed that a car at that price should have been better prepared for market than that....and I think there was a certain faction that thought the car was also overpriced.

I am not sure of the costs of Lexus repairs...but I am almost certain of two things..and I assumeing cars that have been taken care of

1. A 1992 LS400 has not had nearly the shoptime of my 1992 300SD
2. A LS400 has not cost nearly as much for repair as my 300SD

and btw I in a somewhat bad mood since it is again shoptime for my vehicle

Well, I read an article from a Top Gear Magazine in UK, that the
140 car is so huge yet the most unsuccessful MB everbuild, They offered hundreds people to test drive those cars for free, only 5-15 showed up to take the free offer. I guess MB would never build a car like W140 ever under Benz name.Well, just an article that I read, there are still a lot more negative comments about 140 that I did not state. For the quality of the 220, we just can wait for another 5-7 years and see what happened, I am sure 220 will sell more than 140 as it is cheaper and more attractive.
Just an opinion.


Donny

Long term operating costs for the LS400 are very close to the W140. I'm including depreciation, which is a much bigger hit on the Lexus than the MB.

Also, high-mileage Lexus maintenance costs are staggering. Timing chains and suspension repairs are huge costs, well into the thousands of dollars. I believe the timing chain labour charge on the Toyota V-8 is around 40 or so hours.

Infiniti is worse.

There are plenty of 1995 Lexus LS400's on dealer lots right now here for around $35,000. It was around $90K new. A 1995 S320 sold for about $90K, and sells today for about $45K (high mileage) to $50K (dealer lot, Signature Warranty). That $15,000 less depreciation covers a lot of repairs....

It's the same story on the ES300. Equipped like my C230, an ES300 was about $50K. My car was $44K. Today, a nice 1998 C230 sells for about $28K. The Lexus sells for $25K. The additional cost so far is $9000, including depreciation and additional inital price.

That $9000 will go along way to paying any higher repair costs that my MB might have over the Lexus.

You are right about the W140 being overpriced. And that's why the W220 is so different from it. They needed to reel in costs (including warranty repairs) and make the car good value. Even rich folks don't like getting "taken."

The tone of this thread has become a "is the W220 a worthy successor to the W140" argument.

I think it is. It is meeting MB's sales goals. It's lighter, and is a closer match to the BMW in terms of driving dynamics. Every car mag has proclaimed it a clear winner over the 7-series and Lexus rivals.

And to MB's credit, price has become a strong part of their sales strategy. Today (not sure about US MSRP) an LS430 is priced within a couple thousand of an S430LWB.

I think the new crop of MB cars, the W203 and W220, are setting the tone for the future of MB. Good value, excellent initial quality (time will tell on long term reliability) and handsome looks with clean lines.

I think MB has a vision of the world that some like Porsche might not. Porsche is on a roll right now, but with the price of their Boxster going up almost daily (A "regular" Boxster is priced about the same as the SLK32...) and the idiotic Cayenne on the horizon, I have to wonder. Porsche just about went bankrupt in the last recession ignoring the economic conditions. They didn't have any reasonably priced models, catering only to the super-wealthy. MB learned their lesson.

Long ago, a 911 was slightly more expensive than the Corvette. I think it's about 80% higher today. We'll see soon...

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

It is just obvious: buy a +100k 10-year old W140 and your are putting yourself in the position of spending a lot of $$$ to keep it running right.

But, what other vehicle with the same characteristics is absolutely maintenance free??? I know: a cheap Corolla is not going to ruin your vacation fund for an evap core change, but, is like mixing apples and oranges; the Corolla is NEVER going to provide you with the ride, handling and safety of a W140, period!

If you want a worry-free M.B. get a 1985 W123 300D with less than 25,000 miles on it and in pristine condition, if you can...

Or maybe this will sound interesting to W126 lovers: the local dearlership has two nice examples. First: a 1991 300SE with only 14,000 registered miles on the clock, not to many extras, but the car looks better than new. Second: a 1990 300SEL (previously owned by the Russian Embassy), full of extras including the independent rear electric bucket seats and sunshade, with only 35,000 miles on it.

Remember the old axiom: If something is there that could go wrong, it definitely will. If all the electronic marvels in the W220 are as well sorted out as your regular home-PC, well, I need to say no more... ... ...


A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995

You should see by now that drawing generalized conclusions based on specific cases is flawed! It's poor logic but it's done all the time.
The only way to arrive at a legitimate conclusion (or failure trend) is to get all MB service records for that production year and analyze it for failure trends and for total cost of ownership.

But even this is not enough, because after standard warranty runs out, many MB owners go to independent shops for service. That, of course, leaves a big disconnect.

If I use my car (S500cpe) as an example, it has been the lowest cost of ownership of any MB that I've owned! Is that valid? Yes, since my car is seven (7) years old and I have the complete service history for it since 1994.

The only things that 'failed' were (from 0 to 81,500 miles):
1) Steering box leak that was re-built and, after another 5K miles, was replaced because it was still leaking,
2) Seat belts (SRS light) indication due to bad sensor,
3) Driver sided seat belt extender was bad and replaced,
4) Rear view mirror got busted and replaced,
5) Bad lower control arm replaced.

Since I purchased it up to todays miles (99K);
1) DI ignition module failed (replace by myself for $225 using junk yard part).
2) Driver's door actuator lever arm ($1.39 metal rod) that I replaced.
3) Rear license plate lights out due to pinched and broken wire in harness. Fixed with a 'wire nut'.
4) Replaced the motor mounts. Got parts from Ebay for $50!

That's it!

Can we now generalize and say that all W140's are low maintenance? Of course not! One can not draw a valid generalized conclusion from any specific case or cases.

But, as far as I'm concerned, this car has proven to have the lowest cost of ownership as measured against all of my previous MBs (190E, 300E, E320). My 190E was a money sink! Both "E"s were next. My W140 is a great operating, low maintence car with LT reliability!

__________________
Regards . . . . JimF
-------------------
'94 S500 Cpe

Visit my Mercedes Web Page

JimF...you own a gem of an MB. Glad to hear it. Hope our W220 is as good. My 1995 W202 was essentially a zero-maint car for 3 yrs/22k mls so have exper w/low maint MBs

well in regard to maintenace costs I can say that my 140 has been the most expensive car(to maintain) that I have ever owned.I previously owned a 1985 300SD then I 1992 300D 2.5...the 300D 2.5 was by the far the most reliable I think I have ever owned.in 131K of driving all I replaved were glow plugs and a regular....now the 140(current car) has had
1.New instrument cluster(MB paid half..original owner paid half)
2.Two evap core jobs(one in 1997 and one in 2001)
3. Blower resistor
4. Closing assist pump
5. Climate control pushbutton unit
6. New Engine(MB rebuilt longblock assembly)
7.Climate control vacuum switch(this has been twice in the last 4 months)

I think total repair to my car in the past 3 years is about 20K..most of it thank god was warranty
All work done at the dealer by a tech who came from Fletcher Jones MB so he is considered the most competent tech there.
He has told me that all the problems that I have had are all very common in the 140
And I bought a 1 owner car with full MB dealer records...
so I would say that the maitenance issues with the 140 are generalized conclusions based on specific cases
Go to a dealer and ask a good tech who has worked on 140's about what they have seen ...I am sure they will all paint about the same story
In regard to some of the long term Lexus costs...I am not sure..but I can't imagine the costs being anywhere near a 140

Warren
1992 300SD 129K
Columbus Ohio

BMW also makes a W220. It is called the 7 series. Audi makes one too. Both are as well built and good to drive as the 220. The LS430 is good too. Point is all those cars are good and also they are the same. If you want the unique 140 feel, you have to maintain your 140 for another 6 years until (hopefully) MB replaces the 220 with the 141. Of course a 140 is expensive to maintain, and a 220 too when it comes out of warranty. A luxury property is expensive too. You get what you pay for.

I honesty have no problem with the cost to repair the 140....what I have a problem with is the frequency of problem.A subject I have gone into great heated detail with my MB zone rep.Especially items that have needed to be replaced more than once that are not wear and tear items
Concerning the resale of these cars I find it interesting...the higher the model the worse the resale,with the 600's having terrible resale.There is a '97 model here in town with 48K miles that is selling for a third of what it stickered for!!Thats a 67% loss over sticker in 4 years ...and that is at am MB dealer...I can only wonder what the dealer gave the guy in trade..but it was probably a lease vehicle and the lesing company took the hit
It will be curious when the early models get to be worth 7-10K....Those evap cores and electrical probelms may remain unfixed and there may be a ton of junk 140's on the road that no one will touch

Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio

Talking about 7series, my brother in law has 1997 750il with 70K on it, just fixed and electrical unit for the navigation system around 2000 bucks and now he has to replace the brake rotors and pads with total labor of 1000 dollars. Its not including the 70K service which might be around 500? It is just too expensive as he does not have the warranty.


Donny

It's called BMW 750iL syndrome. Remember the late '80's 750? They were known as high dollar cars to service and maintain. Many problems, too. Today, a 1988 750iL is a nearly worthless car. The 735i held it's value better, but not nearly as well as the 5-series.

Look at it this way:

A 1998 C230 here retails for about $28,000. That's about 2/3 of it's original price. A 1998 S500 given the same relationship would sell for $125,000 * .667 = $83,300. Who buys an $83,000 used car? Not many people. A 1998 S500 sells for more like $65-70K. And the market is still VERY thin. It's an S-Class, allrighty, but it's still a USED car.

If the W140 gets a really bad rep, values will plunge, and you'll see them cheaper than E-Class, maybe even C-Class cars.

It's about total ownership costs. At one point, a used 3-series was about the same price as a 5-series, and both were worth more than a 7-series. Who wants to pay top dollar for a used car that's going to cost $10-15K a year to run? I'd want some seriously low price.

I would not be surprised at all if sometime in the future, the 1992-1995 W140's are selling for less than 1992-1995 W124 E-Class cars. If they become repair cost nightmares in the sense the 750 BMW was, even C-Class cars might be higher in price if they prove to be as durable and low-cost to run as they seem to be shaping up to be...

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif