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  #31  
Old 07-24-2004, 12:07 PM
pesuazo's Avatar
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This is a healthy debate about refrigerants.

Freeze 12 is NOT illegal in 18 states.

Quote from EPA website:
"The following 18 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12aŽ and DURACOOL 12aŽ in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia."

Only hydrocarbons-refrigerants are illegal in those 18 states.

Freeze 12 is a LEGAL replacement for R12, by EPA regulations (all states). IT IS NOT A "SNAKE OIL - REFRIGERANT". It is a blend.

Sometimes we let our personal feelings/opinions get in the way, and call things something they are not.

It is LEGAL to use HYDROCARBON refrigerants in North Carolina. Providing the system was a 134a before the conversion (by EPA standards)

It is ILLEGAL to vent ANY refrigerant into the atmosphere.

Those are the facts, debate about which is better or more or less dangerous is another story.

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  #32  
Old 07-24-2004, 03:23 PM
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Thanks for the quick replies fellows, I will stick with R 12.

The $40. per can price quote + tax was at O'Reilly Auto Parts. I just bought two 12 oz. cans on eBay for $48.50 plus shipping.

The one owner ( based on a Car Fax report ) 1984 380 SL recently purchased I have reason to believe has not been used since 2000 as the latest Missouri inspection sticker on it is 1999. It came from a RV dealer friend of mine who took it in trade on an RV from a person across the state in St. Louis.

The system has some charge in it now and I can jump the low pressure switch to activate the compressor clutch so I doubt there is any air in the system. It has 2 Schrader valves on the suction line ( anyone know why and which one do you use to charge it ) and one of them does not have a cap on it. Between that and the plastic lines I just want to guess that time took its toll with leakage. Fortunately I still have a set of Gauges and a can tap although auto AC was not ever my strong suit.

I totally enjoy this forum and the wealth of knowledge available. I will be here quite often and the search feature is great. It was a great idea to put that sticky note on the top about it.

Best Wishes,
John
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  #33  
Old 07-24-2004, 03:32 PM
LarryBible
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So isobutane is not flammable? jcyuhns research showed iso-butane to be a component in Freeze 12.

I will reiterate, the snake oil refrierants ALL fall into one of two categories, either flammable or blend. In the case of Freeze 12 it is both.

The downside to a flammable is obvious, thus that is why they are banned in 18 states.

The downside to a blend is that the individual components leak at different rates. When recharging, you must recover the complete charge to be in accordance with the law. Since it is a blend or a flammable or a unique compound, what cylinder are you going to recover it into? An R12 cylinder? no. An r134a cylinder? no. So what cylinder. Are you going to keep a cylinder in your shop for every possible refrigerant? I don't think so. In the case of a blend, it is not the correct blend when recovering because the components have leaked out at different rates.

IF EVERYONE that used a snake oil refrigerant used the proper fittings and properly marked the vehicle as Federal law requires, this would be much less of a problem. In reality though, few do that. Thus this makes for a very bad problem for the poor folks that try to make their living in the auto a/c business.

The cars that require R12 are old enough now that they are hitting the salvage yards in record numbers. R12 is more and more affordable due to falling demand.

Have a great day,
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  #34  
Old 07-24-2004, 07:21 PM
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I will correct jcyuhns and you by quoting what the EPA states the blend on Freeze 12 is:
80% 134a and 20% 142b

It is just considered a legal and approved replacement blend for
R12 (in the whole country).

Obviously you are misinformed on Freeze 12, and insist that it is Ilegal in 18 states, and flammable. When in reality, it is NOT.
If it was flammable, the EPA would not have approved it.

I agree with you on the points you mention regarding leakage, the lack of proper retrofitting, labeling, etc....

What concerns me is that in your view the EPA is approving "snake oils" for LEGAL replacement of R12.

IMHO it sounds like descrediting the EPA.
We should not wave a flag quoting federal regulations and the EPA on some topics (the topics we agree with them), and when we disagree with them call their ruling a fraud such as "snake-oil".

Many people read and follow your advice (including myself), and look forward to your wealth of information and sound advice (Thank you for it)

Thanks for a healthy debate.
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  #35  
Old 07-24-2004, 09:03 PM
LarryBible
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My comments about flammability were based on the 2% isobutane statement. I am not going to search it out, but it could very well be that 142b contains isobutane.

There are a number of refrigerants that are on the EPA list, but are still illegal in certain states.

Regardless of what is in it or any other off the wall refrigerant, it presents a large problem to the poor folks that do auto a/c work. Most of them have a recovery machine for 134 and another for 12.

Whichever refrigerant your car came with, it is by far the least expensive component in the system. Why not simply stay with the original refrigerant and make life good for yourself and the poor guy that is going to have to work on that system somewhere down the line.

Since each one of these snake oil refrigerants require a different fitting, what are the shops supposed to do, invest their kids college fund in equipment to recover all these broths so they can stay legal?

Changing from the original refrigerant is just false economy, period. When you need refrigerant, you most likely have some other problem that will require time and money to fix. By the time you're done if you use the original refrigerant, it probably won't make 10 or 20% difference in the bill. I've seen so many people spend $500, $1,000 or more to fix their a/c with no complaints but then when they find that it will cost an additional $50 to use the correct refrigerant it's like their house just burned down or something. Get a grip.

Have a great day,
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  #36  
Old 07-24-2004, 09:28 PM
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"get a grip".....on what?
LOL, Just Kidding

I reiterate, I agree with you 100% on how a large variety of refrigerants can make it extremely hard on shops.

I am also a believer on a good repair and recharge with the original refrigerant.

I only disagree with calling Legal and EPA approved refrigerants snake oils.

WHY?
Because I (and you) quote information from their website as well as Federal regulations to prove our point. We have in our signatures that WE ARE 609 certified (EPA).
I find that calling snake oils those refrigerants that the EPA approves makes me (and you) certified by a "snake oil agency".

IMHO, it takes away credibility from our "609 certification".

Thanks again.
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  #37  
Old 07-28-2004, 06:04 AM
87-300E_in_NC's Avatar
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I think Larry sells snake oil on the side, and all of his marketing tactics are within his messages. He really wants you to ask him where you can get some....and then he's got ya! Just like the snake himself.....LOL!!!!

Whatever Larry....thank God you have your a/c certification though.......don't know what the world would be like without your dutiful service to humanity.

I'll put whatever I desire in my a/c, because it's mine, and you will never ride in it. Guess you never thought of that, huh? Well you have a great day Larry, and stay cool

Quote:
jcyuhn: Dude, don't get so defensive just because we think you're wrong!
I'll get defensive when and where I feel....and it's not up to you to tell me how to live my life, now is it? Didn't think so..... Have a good one.

Have a great day everyone. I'm going to a funeral of a friend today that was murdered....so no matter what you think about your car or what's legal in some states, think about how fortunate we all are that we are alive, and in a free country. Times like this makes me wonder about humanity, and the future.
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  #38  
Old 07-30-2004, 05:03 PM
LarryBible
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Very sorry to hear about your friend.

I don't think there are ANY of us in this discussion that have our priorities so jumbled that we consider the refrigerant you use as a life or death decision.

You are certainly correct. You have the right to use WHATEVER you wish in your a/c. If you wan't to fill it full of amonia, I say go for it!

We are simply pointing out the downside so that you are aware of the pros and cons. EVERYTHING is a compromise and there is no perfect situation. There are simply certain solutions that have more pros than cons or vice versa.

We are simply trying to help you understand the pros and cons. It is up to you to make the decision and it is up to you to live with whatever decision you make.

It is called personal responsibility. Unfortunately there are too many folks these days who want to make others take responsibility for their own bad decisions. In your case though, I'm sure that you are prepared to deal with the consequences, good or bad, of your own decisions.

Have a FANTASTIC day,

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