M113 - losing 2L oil/1000Km - rebuild or replace? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Zeus · #1 11-07-2007, 11:14 AM

Hey guys,

My M113 is using or burning a lot of oil. Current mileage is 144,000 Km.

Just did a 1000 Km round trip and my 1998 E430 required 2L of oil to be added. On the way down (500Km leg) and 'low oil' warning came up on the instrument cluster. I added 1L of oil, Elf 5W30 (229.3). On the way back (perhaps 500-600Km later), the same warning came on again. Added another 1L. When I got home, I checked the dipstick and the oil was at the lower 1/3 mark.

I occasionally get a puff of blue smoke on startup, usually after the car has sat for a while. I thought valve stem seals, but every tech I've spoken to says they haven't seen this on an M112/113.

No significant leaks, the ground under the car is bare. However, I haven't inspected the entire engine thoroughly yet.

When running, the car doesn't visibly smoke at all (cats sucking it up?). Car runs and idles well. Even when accelerating hard, there is no visible exhaust.

Mileage is decent - I got approx. 600 Km on about 70L of gas on mostly highway.

When I bought the car in April, it wasn't showing any blue smoke at startup and it got perfect zeros on the emissions test. Consumption seems to have gotten worse since then.

Before I go further, I am wondering what the next steps should be? Could it be anything other than rings/valves? If it is the rings/valves, I am leaning towards buying a used engine rather than rebuilding (cost is about half).

Any advice? TIA.

This is killing me. I love the way this car handles and drives and the chassis is in excellent shape. This car was babied at the dealer since Day 1. However, it seems to have gone 17,000 Km between oil change intervals (as per FSS) on regular (non-synthetic) oil up to about 60,000 Km. Dealer used Quaker State. We don't have the lawsuit extended coverage up here in Canada, so I'm probably on my own as far as Mercedes corporate is concerned.

deanyel · #2 11-07-2007, 02:43 PM

I wonder why the suit hasn't been filed in Canada. I think I'd offer MB Canada a deal - fix your car and you won't file the class action.

#3 11-08-2007, 11:20 AM

Wow. That's terrible. I'd go over every square inch of that motor to make absolutely certain that it's not leaking somewhere.

However, a leak that large should be immediately obvious. Then again, so should that level of oil burning. The oil does not just disappear though, it's either being burned or leaking out.

Keep us posted. My hope & guess is that there's a leak, but that may be Pollyanna-ish.

ILUVMILS · #4 11-08-2007, 12:16 PM

It sounds like the piston rings are sticking. It's not uncommon for M112/113's. My shop re-rings about one or two every month to resolve oil consumption complaints. Before we tear them down though, we perform a borescope inspection of the cylinder walls. Every now and then we find severe scoring. In these cases we replace the engine block with a set of fitted pistons.

Zeus · #5 11-08-2007, 12:37 PM

ILUVMILS - that is my biggest worry, that the rings are toast.

I'm just trying to decide what to do next. try and de-sludge it as best I can and pray, or just get another engine.

I pulled the engine cover (plastic one) and looked around with a flashlight. What I found is some leaking around the passenger side valve cover, just under the MAF. There is plenty of dusty-looking oil gunk there and several of the coil packs look wet with oil. Also some fresh looking oil around the spark plug areas on that side.

So there is a leak.

However, there is absolutely no oil under the car in my garage where it sits all night. So these leaks must be minor. Unless perhaps they leak more under high load and then stop once parked??

Also - looked under the oil cap and down into the valve head area and I saw reddish-brown sludge. It wipes off easily with my finger. Looks dirty inside as well. I could post a pic later if that woudl help?

I'm wondering if I should pull a valve cover to see how bad the sludge is. Perhaps I should try some AutoRX or flushes to try and clean the sludge? I know manufacturers state not to use it, but at this point my trust in Mercedes' advice is suspect to say the least.

It kills me to see a beautiful car like this, which has been babied - and I mean babied - since Day 1. I have about 40 pages of records from the dealer to prove so. Service booklet inside the glovebox has also been kept up to date.

And now I'm guessing when I pull the valve cover, it'll be a mess of sludge, slidge, sludge.

300B · #6 11-08-2007, 12:43 PM

Maybe babying it too much was the cause for the oil consumption as some cars like to be driven hard to seat the rings properly.

Find a stretch of road where you can hit 60mph the do a lot of engine braking to achieve a high vacuum condition.This will hopefully free up the rings more.

Zeus · #7 11-08-2007, 12:47 PM

300B, Been there and done that but thank you for the suggestion nonetheless!

Interestingly, my leak is identical to that described by this guy here -

http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198556

He has started a poll on it as he thinks it is a common leak spot on M112/113. Who knows, but it's interesting it's the identical area I have a leak.

Palangi · #8 11-10-2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

17,000 Km between oil change intervals (as per FSS)

10,000 mile OCI on dino oil??

On an expensive engine like that??

Man, that gives me the willies just thinking about it.

Zeus · #9 11-10-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

10,000 mile OCI on dino oil??

On an expensive engine like that??

Man, that gives me the willies just thinking about it.

Yeah, and that was per the dealer and Mercedes.

pastmaster · #10 11-11-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

Yeah, and that was per the dealer and Mercedes.

Zeus, Sorry to hear of your problem with the high oil consumption, and the gauntlet you are experiencing. The problem seems to stem from the the wrong type of oil (Dino), used at those 10000 mile extended intervals.

Since having changed to synthetic oils, and if you wish to continue using them, I would go to Mobil 1 Delvac in a 5W-40 weight, for it's cleaning effect. It is very high in detergents and anti-corrosive additives, to meet the Heavy Duty Diesel Req'ts. for that purpose. It can be also used in spark ignition engines-gasoline, as it is formulated for that use also. I would try this before tearing into the engine or selling it.

I would use the Dino version of Mobil Delvac 15W-40 $8-9./gal., and add Marvel Mystery Oil to the engine oil and to the fuel. Buy a 1 gal. jug of MMO, at Wmart for about $12.50, and use it as directed for mixing with the oil and fuel. It will turn the oil black pretty quick, and you may want to change it at 1000-2000 mile intervals, with a new oil filter. Add the Dino 15W-40, as needed for topping up. Do this several times before you give up on it. MMO is used in the USAF by 55gal. drums in older non-turbine engines. Gen. Aviaton too.

If all this doesn't solve the problem, I would use Dino HDEO's like Mobil Delvac Super 1300 or Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO, etc., and keep the oil consumption to more reasonable levels. Oil consumption or use is not bad for an engine, it's bad for emissions and the wallet.

Don't tear the engine down, if you can reduce the oil consumption, by whatever means you can find that will help reduce or stop it. Good Luck.

Will_w202 · #11 11-11-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pastmaster

Zeus, Sorry to hear of your problem with the high oil consumption, and the gauntlet you are experiencing. The problem seems to stem from the the wrong type of oil (Dino), used at those 10000 mile extended intervals.

Since having changed to synthetic oils, and if you wish to continue using them, I would go to Mobil 1 Delvac in a 5W-40 weight, for it's cleaning effect. It is very high in detergents and anti-corrosive additives, to meet the Heavy Duty Diesel Req'ts. for that purpose. It can be also used in spark ignition engines-gasoline, as it is formulated for that use also. I would try this before tearing into the engine or selling it.

I would use the Dino version of Mobil Delvac 15W-40 $8-9./gal., and add Marvel Mystery Oil to the engine oil and to the fuel. Buy a 1 gal. jug of MMO, at Wmart for about $12.50, and use it as directed for mixing with the oil and fuel. It will turn the oil black pretty quick, and you may want to change it at 1000-2000 mile intervals, with a new oil filter. Add the Dino 15W-40, as needed for topping up. Do this several times before you give up on it. MMO is used in the USAF by 55gal. drums in older non-turbine engines. Gen. Aviaton too.

If all this doesn't solve the problem, I would use Dino HDEO's like Mobil Delvac Super 1300 or Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO, etc., and keep the oil consumption to more reasonable levels. Oil consumption or use is not bad for an engine, it's bad for emissions and the wallet.

Don't tear the engine down, if you can reduce the oil consumption, by whatever means you can find that will help reduce or stop it. Good Luck.

I will agree with this, and with Hatteras. I will also add that 30-weight is simply too thin for a V8 like this. I will ALSO agree that yes, you do need to drive these cars hard and not necessarily baby them. Different motor, but my m111 burns ZERO oil at a 5k change interval, 229.51 dealer 5w40, previously 15w50 M1 (unnecessarily thick, so I changed). I have beat the crap out of this motor for 105k, and it has 165k on the clock.

THAT SAID......simply put, run the Delvac 5w40 (or M1 HD truck and SUV is what they call it now), then after 2k or so use the M1 15w50 SuperSyn and see what happens to your consumption

Zeus · #12 11-11-2007, 09:10 PM

I spoke with the Service Manager at the Mercedes dealer here. He was polite and listened, and apparently hadn't heard of sludging issues on the M112/113 nor the O'Keefe lawsuit in the US. He agreed it wouldn't hurt to approach MB Canada and see if they'll do anything to help. First step is an initial inspection at the dealer, I'm booked for an appt in about a week and a half. Then take it from there.

Thanks for all the replies and I really appreciate all the help.

I've been doing plenty of reading and research about sludge and it seems like there are plenty of examples of cars (especially post 1998) having this problem. Not just Mercedes but also BMW, Lexus, Toyota, Audi, VW, etc. Most seem to be related to a combination of city driving and extended oil change intervals.

I agree with you guys on the trying to clean it option. If I don't get any help from MB (and I'm not holding my breath there), I may as well try and clean the engine up using an appropriate oil or in conjunction with a cleaner instead of simply getting another engine right away. Nothing to lose in trying. If I can get consumption low enough, I'll be happy with that.

Drove the car today and it runs so perfectly, you'd swear there is nothing wrong. Watched the exhaust when I started it, especially in the morning, and there was nothing - no smoke at all. Same while driving. Bizarre. Unless my cats are sucking it all up...

So, who knows...we'll see how it pans out (no pun intended).

manny · #13 11-11-2007, 09:18 PM

MBUSA recommends only the use of MB approved synthetic motor oil for all vehicles equipped with the Flexible Service System (FSS) as of Model Year 1998. Conventional petroleum based oils are not recommended but may be used on older vehicles.

What kind of Hack is your dealer?

Zeus · #14 11-11-2007, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manny

MBUSA recommends only the use of MB approved synthetic motor oil for all vehicles equipped with the Flexible Service System (FSS) as of Model Year 1998. Conventional petroleum based oils are not recommended but may be used on older vehicles.

What kind of Hack is your dealer?

manny - that is exactly the problem. Mercedes didn't recommend synthetic (as defined in North America) until after 2000 or so. Hence the lawsuit for 1998-2000 model year cars in the USA.

This car was bought and serviced at the flagship MB dealership in Canada, the downtown/Dundas St. dealership in Toronto. It was babied from day 1. The dealer was simply following Mercedes' advice re: FSS. That, sadly, is what caused the sludge. It went to 80,000 Km on approx. 17,000 Km intervals, using dino oil. Changed to synthetic at around 86,000 Km. I have all the documents (receipts and stamped service booklet) chronicling all the oil changes and intervals, as well as the oil type used. We'll see what MB Canada says...

manny · #15 11-11-2007, 09:37 PM

Okay, I sure hope they will eat some humble pie & do something for you.
Looking forward to the outcome of this one.

On another note, just had my first "A" service done @ 15 k km.
Next service "B" should be at 30 k km, according to my display,but my service booklet states "A" service @ 20 k km and thereafter all "A" and "B" services @ 20 k , or once a year intervals.

Aside from that, my dealer ( so I discovered afterward ), used crappy Quaker State oil.