A head gasket is child's play compared to having your rings go bad on the V6, which seems to be quite common. What can you say about an engine (V6) that requires synthetic oil to operate properly - crazy.

How did you come up with that fairytale ?

__________________
2007 C 230 Sport.

And got it from the factory, see http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html and the FSS lawsuit, didn't even think it a provocative or controversial statement. That the 112 engine family is a substantially cheapened engine comes from Mercedes itself in statements made to Wall Street at introduction. And some of these ring failures are coming on cars that have never seen conventional oil.

Head gasket tattle tale

The leak is often missed in the engine compartment since the oil rarely comes out when the engine is sitting. Look under the car and if there is oil staining on the underside of the the passenger side of the car then its beginning to leak. The oil will leak when driving - it runs down the block and hits the airstream under the car and mists the body.

Think of the guy chewing and spitting tobacco driving down the road in his white convertible cadilac. The interior looks great, but that driver side door is a mess.

__________________
Brian G.

1994 E320 Wagon with many warts SOLD
1995 E320 Wagon with a beauty mark or two FOR SALE

The M112 engine was cheaper to build as I recall however I have not heard of more than a handful of ring failures on the M112/M113 engines. Of course thats not very comforting when you are facing the costs of replacing an M112 engine with shot rings. One of the moderators on this site (Zeus) is currently facing this issue on his otherwise perfect E430. The car runs flawlessly but burns oil at an excessive rate.

As others have pointed out the M104 faces headgasket, wiring harness and ETA motor issues - overall I'd say the M112 has proven to be better long term bet than the M104. I know of several M112 with 200-300K that have had absolutely nothing done to them other than routine maintenance, I think you would have a hard time finding an M104 owner that could have dodged the headgasket, wiring harness and ETA motor bullets over the same time periods.

On the road I slightly prefer the M104, you can't beat a straight six for smoothness.

__________________
98 Dodge-Cummins pickup (137K)
13 GLK250 (157k)
06 E320CDI (341K)
16 C300 (89K)
82 300GD Gelaendewagen (54K)

Common sense should tell you need to use the finest oil available if you want your engine to last

~Nautilus

__________________
1990 260E Sportline (that's 300E 2.6 for our American friends) -> sold
2001 E320 4Matic Elegance -> my Dad's daily drive
2005 Seat Leon FR 1.8T

cgranju - It's a good question. Some good points made here.

I think they are both good engines, the key is maintenance. How have they been serviced? If you find an M112 that has had frequent oil changes, either more than stipulated by FSS or at least on par, and has also used ONLY approved synthetic oil, it should prove a fine engine. I would not purchase one without this service record documentation in hand.

There seem to be quite a few ML owners with M112s that use oil, and have been serviced well. So it does seem that some of these engines use oil, whereas this was not an issue with the M104. Definitely something to consider. As stated, my M113 uses oil and it is a frustrating issue to try and rectify as diagnosis is very difficult - short of tearing the entire engine open.

However, the 722.6 transmission is leagues beyond the old 4-speed in terms of performance and quality of ride. If you bought a 1999 model, you would probably be in good stead in terms of getting a solid specimen.

Then there is the 1997 E320, which will give you the M104 and the 722.6. A family member here has this car and it has proved very reliable and durable. Now close to 160,000 Km, it has the original tranny and engine. Not a single problem with either (doesn't burn a drop of oil either). We have had the transmission fluid changed however, and will do so every 50,000 Km - Mercedes' 'lifetime' fill be damned.

Good luck!

__________________
Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired

"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

At this point I think condition, mileage, and service records are of greater significance than which engine is chosen. I currently own one of each - a 1993 300E 2.8 and a 2001 E320 wagon. In normal driving they are almost indistiguishable - perfectly smooth, responsive, and quiet. Add a bit of throttle and they both get aggressive, pulling hard at upper RPMs with a sporting growl. Different notes, of course, an I6 doesn't sound like a V6.

In terms of repairs, the M104 has required both a head gasket and engine wiring harness prior to 100K miles. As I understand it, the engine wiring harness is not a concern in a 96/97 model year car.

The M112 hasn't needed any repairs. Of course, it's only 7 years/55K miles old.

The professional techs on the site do report occasionally reringing the M112/M113 V6/V8 engines. So far I haven't seen any data points that correlate, or not, this failure with use of conventional oils. I don't know whether this failure occurs to the unlucky or only those that don't follow proper maintenance procedures. I can recall 2 occurances of folks on this site that needed new rings.

The 722.6 five speed automatic is a nicer driving transmission than the earlier four speed. It has a better selection of gear ranges, and is more cooperative in choosing the correct gear. It delivers better fuel mileage because it has an overdrive top gear and a lockup torque converter. But unless you can afford a late 99 or 2000 model year, when all the updates were incorporated, I wouldn't recommend it over the earlier transmission.

My long and rambling $.02,

- JimY

Jim - great post and I agree with all of it. While I haven't seen any directly correlating data on your point above, the successful lawsuit against Mercedes in the USA by O'Keefe was based on this exact premise. That 1998-2000 MY Mercedes exhibiting oil consumption issues, and that followed FSS intervals yet used mineral oil, were to be repaired under warranty by Mercedes. The issue of course was that Mercedes failed to specify the TYPE of oil to be used in North American cars. The European standards were higher (still are) and hence the cars were already using synthetic overseas. Here in North America, the dealers used regular oil or blends and then ran the engines to the full FSS interval.

It doesn't take much engineering or biochemical knowledge to know that an oil designed to run a maximum of around 5,000 miles shouldn't be run to 10,000 miles or over. Hence the damage, and hence the oil consumption.

My car had intervals of over 17,000 Km on conventional oil. This up to about 80,000 Km or so. I don't think it is a coincidence that my engine is now consuming oil. Whether from sludge or permature wear due to the oil not being able to lubricate properly is something I may never know. No help from MB Canada either, no lawsuit up here and my car is now over the 10-year mark.

__________________
Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired

"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

But you're missing the point. The really long lived MB engines of the past never saw a drop of synthetic oil. The point is the engines have changed. I believe MB boasted to Wall Street that they had cut nearly half of the production cost of the 112 engine family versus the prior engines. Whether they did this intentional to shorten engine life (planned obsolescence) or simply missed a calculation and screwed up is not as important as the fact (obvious to me) that it happened. Bottom end engine problems are not a laughing matter in this day and age. 104 motors and 119 motors don't have them short of really serious abuse.

deanyel - I think the issue is not the engine construction, but the recommended service intervals that were inherent to these models. Many savvy owners ran synthetic from the start - and the fact is that synthetics WILL outlast conventional oils - and many also did an extra oil change in between the 'recommended' intervals.

It is my guess that if you ran an M112/M113 engine on conventional oil AND changed it accordingly - i.e. every 4,000 miles or so, the engine would prove every bit as durable as the M104/M119s of the past.

The engines themselves don't "need" synthetic oils, it is the FSS system that requires synthetic oil's long-term performance in order to meet the extended service interval timelines.

Just my $0.02.

__________________
Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired

"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

I think everybody ( but you ) knows, an inline 6 cylinder engine is much more expensive to build than a V - 6 engine.
The cost & packaging have prompted most manufacturers ( BMW being one exeption ) to switch to the V - 6 engine.

__________________
2007 C 230 Sport.

Manny-

Why is an I6 engine more expensive to build?

If it is, is this a good thing? How so?

Are the parts more expensive? The labor involved?

__________________
'90 300SE 298k
-300K and it gets put into retirement.
'80 300D 255k Purchased new by family in 1980.

Had a:
1973 220 (gas)
1980 300SD
1992 400E

The whole process is more expensive ( from engine block casting, to crankshaft, etc ).
As well as, a V - 6 engine can be machined on the same " line " as a V - 8 engine, which also streamlines the procedure.

__________________
2007 C 230 Sport.

Regardless the cost savings was also 113 versus 119 - both V8s. 104 motors and 119 motors are not particularly sensitive to oil change intervals. The 112 motors were in court in less than 4 years from their introduction, a truly stunning feat of shoddiness, and Mercedes folded like a cheap suit. The only cars out of warranty were those with more than 50k miles. I think 112/113 owners are in denial.