tcane, that resume is very impressive. I wonder how the education of the german engineers that wrote the service manual that states the use of a master link is permissable would stack up to your education?

And very undefensible by tcane - he was simply providing exactly what you asked for - an opinion of his experience. (of which he has WAY more than I) I suspect it wasn't intended to sound mean, but humor and sarcasm are difficult to convey in print.

I have no doubt the engineers that wrote the manual said it was permissible to use a clip link - it has been used in manufacture for awhile, but it doesn't mean that it is the PREFERRED method of R/R.

I think tcane saying it was the way HE would (and did) do it is what he offered.

I think each of us can make up our mind how we want the repair done on our own vehicles. I for one would take the extra step necessary for an endless chain because I feel it would give me peace of mind and if it still failed then it was probably due to an error in my installation rather than a defect (which may be the case using a clip, but THEN I would blame the clip).


John in San Antonio
(praying his TC doesn't break anytime , well, ever)
AND who didn't realize he was replying to an 8 year old thread - thanks whunter for tricking me!

__________________
John Hughes, was in Landstuhl, Germany but currently in San Antonio, TX


1978 280CE Astral Silver now 59,xxx miles and counting "Silber-Kugel"
1986 300E Black Pearl Metallic 143,xxx miles 5-spd daily driver w/ blk leather "Schwarz-Schönheit"
1989 190E 2.6 (euro) 5-spd Desert Taupe 112,xxx kms Had to leave behind in Germany!!! "Helga"
1983 300D Pastel Beige now 312,xxx + miles SOLD

OBK#24

Southern Son,

Does the MB manual mean a CRIMPED master link or a CLIP master link? A crimped master link still qualifies and may be referred to as a master link. They may mean using a master link is okay so that the chain can be fed in. They may not mean it is okay to use a clipped master link. If they do, I would be interested to know.

I apologize for claiming that I was attacked. Things have been very tense for me for a while and the REAL attack in New York has not helped my attitude any. If I was overbearing in my original post in which I warned against a clipped master link, I was only trying to help. I apologize if my tone was incorrect while giving that recommendation. The consequences of a failed chain in one of these engines involves several thousand dollars damage plus a good bit of frustration. BTW I WILL continue to use CRIMPED master links in my engines, and everyone is totally free to use what they wish in their engines. It's a free country.


PS I read the end of Mr. Cane's post about the E clips. I hope no one expects that the long C type clip will substitute for this.


Have a great day,

I have had a lot of problem with my ISP and was not able to add info and edit my first post. Please re-read my post as I hope to have clarified and completed it.

All I can say about the MB engine manual that I own is that I have found info in it that does not directly apply to my 300D (see my post about injector nozzles and whether to use the nozzle plates/sealing washers). I do know that most Honda service manuals available when I was associated with Honda did not contain all the info that was available to the dealership - much less the info American Honda had. I am fairly certain that MB service departments have 1,000's of pages and/or CD-ROMS with much more info than what the public can buy. I am not inferring that the MB manual is misleading and/or wrong - I am saying that we may not have all the info available. I have also found info about MB vehicles in service manuals at my library that is not in my MB service manuals, especially the Mitchell service manuals. However, these other manuals do not have info contained in the MB manual.

The method that anyone uses to attach their timing chain is up to them. I am only providing my opinion on the method I know will work - endless chains are far stronger than chains using a master link (the e-type or c-type clip). However, I do know that some/many will take exception to my suggestion/knowledge/opinion since my background is on less-well engineered vehicles than the engineering used in MB vehicles and my actual experience on MB vehicles is limited to my personal 300D and some with one medium-duty MB truck (GVW 40,000 lbs.) - so be it.

Good Luck!

Tom

One observation about timing chains using master link vs. making it an endless chain. Did your original timing chain have a master link? If not, then that fact speaks volumes about making a replacement chain endless and not use a master link.

However, if someone is going to use a master link then in addition to making sure the open end of the clip is facing in the opposite direction of engine rotation the sharp edge of the clip MUST face outwards. These clips (both the e-type and c-type) are stamped out when made and there is a round edge (this is the side that was struck by the cutter) and a sharp edge. The sharp edge will provide a larger more sure contact area on the grooves cut into the pin. The sharp edge of the clip can be easily found by fealing it with your finger.

Last, do not twist, deform, or in any manner damage the clip so that it will have its original shape and best chance of staying on the pin grooves.

I am curious about whether or not anyone's MB engine manual goes into the details of using a master link similar to my suggestions? My MB engine manual does not contain any of this info.

Good Luck!

Tom

The reason the manufacturer uses the endless chain in the original installation is simple; the engine cover is off and during assembly it is easy to put on the cheaper endless chain. The manufacture of a master link costs more since it must be machined for the clips. It has nothing to do with strength.

Larry, I would like to know if there are, in your experience, some name brands made in Germany from which one would be wise to steer clear or is this just an idle statement?

I've a couple of questions about my chain that broke.

Each link is stamped I believed with "JWIS". The chain has 96 pins.

Is this a MB chain?

It was not the "Master" link that snapped. The link that was used to connect this chain together is chamfered or beaten along the whole edge of each rivet while all other rivets on the chain is beveled only on two opposite sides.

Note by the attachment that the pin that pulled out of the link does not have the roller or spacer. Where could it have gone, or was it never there? I can't believe that it came off. No other pin has a roller that has any kind of indication that it is biginning to separate.

Had to buy the "triple square" socket to get at the head bolts. Will have it off tomorrow. I am waiting for my parts. My brother who has a German auto shop in Arizona is sending them out, but who knows when a plane can have them here?

I went to the machine shop that has my Harley heads to find out when they will be done and look into them doing the work on this head when to my suprise they were closed and apparently in bankrupcy. Mayfair has been doing great work for 30-40 years. I hope I am wrong. How do I go about finding out about getting my heads back?

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________
Michael LaFleur

'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
'83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-(
'61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes
2004 Papillon (Oliver)
2005 Tzitzu (Griffon)
2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba)

Southern Son,

I apologize for not putting a question mark on the end of my original question. I will say again for the third time, I am asking a question here. I don't know which brand is a good brand and which one is a bad brand, that is why I am seeking the experience of others with aftermarket chains to see if there is one to stay away from, or one that is known to be high quality. Call my statement an idle statement if you want. I was merely seeking the benefit of the experience(s) of others.

Additionally, it is not the STRENGTH of a clipped master link that is in question. It is the possibility of the clip coming off. If you wish to debate whether or not the clip can come off or not, that would be what you should debate, not the STRENGTH of the closing link. Many people continue to use the term master link interchangably for a clipped master link as well as a peened master link. In the case of a factory chain, every link is the same, they are all peened together. The only difference in a peened master link and a clipped master link is the means of holding the plate in place. When replacing a chain, using the crimping tool properly, you will probably not be able to recognize the closing (master) link.

Have a great day,

Michael,

I am sorry to hear about your machine shop closing down. I hope you can find out how to get your Harley heads back. I have put lots of hours into cylinder heads before in the form of port work and other tedious time spent, it would have been a loss greater than the value of the heads had I run into what you are experiencing.

I thank you again for continuing to supply information and photographs of your failed chain. I very much expect that the pin and roller are in the bottom of the pan. It wouldn't be too much trouble to remove the lower oil pan, or maybe you've already done that.

Best of luck with the project,

I was thinking that my chain was intact and that the end of the chain that you see in pic with the exposed pin was the pin that was pulled out. I wonder if there ever was a roller on that pin. I will look in the pan but I can't see how the roller could have come off.

I haven't removed the pan. You have to lift the engine to do this don't you? That is not something I wanted to do. However, if I do remove the pan, how much more trouble if it to do some bottom end work? I expect that is where most of my oil pressure is dissapearing.

__________________
Michael LaFleur

'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
'83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-(
'61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes
2004 Papillon (Oliver)
2005 Tzitzu (Griffon)
2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba)

Michael,

Yes, I forgot, this engine has a one piece pan. I expect that it wouldn't be too bad to raise the engine enough to remove it.

I expect that there was a roller in place at one time. The way the chain is made, the rollers are in place before you put in the connecting link.

Good luck,

Do yo think I can do enough to the bottom without too much trouble? It's one of those "While I am at it..." things.


I was wondering if the chain was missing that roller when it was installed. That would extra stress on the link, especially when about to enter or exit the sprocket. Over time this could wear out the holes the pin goes through to the oint is cannot hold the tension and pulls through the remaining metal.

Just thinking out loud (per se).

__________________
Michael LaFleur

'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
'83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-(
'61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes
2004 Papillon (Oliver)
2005 Tzitzu (Griffon)
2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba)

Michael,

Do you mean in the form of replacing bearings and such? There was a very good article in the Star magazine about six months or so ago about the fact that the bottom of these engines far outlast the top. When my cylinder head demanded attention at 170K miles, I found the bottom to be in excellent shape. These engines typically respond extremely well to cylinder head work. Mine has gone about 30K miles now since I did the top and it has great oil pressure and no oil consumption problems at all.

I expect that missing roller is in the pan, but there is just no way to be sure without some disassembly. Most likely it would stay in the bottom of the pan and not cause any problems, but there are no guarantees of this. If you had a magnet small enough to fit through the drain plug hole and move around in the sump, you very possibly could get lucky and fish it out. The drain plug hole is large enough that it would be worth investigating.

Best of luck,

Yes, I meant bearings and such. The bottom end has 220k on it and I have absolutely no oil pressure reading at idle while hot. Increasing rpm by about 200 can increase it to about 1000. It has not been confirmed via a true pressure gauge though. I can only attribute this to bearings and journals. If I do decide to, what can be replaced without too much trouble?

__________________
Michael LaFleur

'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
'83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-(
'61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes
2004 Papillon (Oliver)
2005 Tzitzu (Griffon)
2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba)

Michael,

Wow, if the oil pressure is really totally gone, you would expect some serious clearance problem somewhere. Since you're working on the top end anyway, examine cam bearing surfaces and journals to see if there is obvious wear at that area, if so that might be where your oil pressure is going.

I think we both know, however, that the most likely area would be the main bearings and journals. You won't know until you mic the crank journals and the mains can't be measured properly without at least partially removing the crankshaft. If the engine is this bad, do you have facilities to just pull the motor and do it all? With the exhaust loose, which it has to be for the head to come off anyway, the rest of the work involved with pulling the engine would not be much more than raising the motor. You will just need to be careful with connections and mark them well.

With the engine out, you can then more easily remove the crankshaft for grinding if necessary. I'm sure you know that when you start down this road, one thing often leads to another.

Another thing that may help you decide is the bore condition which you will, of course, know after the head is off. If you find the bores have a heavy ridge, then your crankshaft is more likely to need attention, and the engine would best come out at that time anyway.

It's really difficult sometimes to know where to draw the line. It almost always turns out to take more time and money than your original plan.

Good luck,