healed itself! - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cphilip · #1 12-12-2008, 06:13 PM

I kid....

No seriously... this one has us stumped. I and the Seller were investigating a small pool of nice fresh oil that we found under the car. A 94 E230 Wagon. And trying to find it we cleaned the whole area around the typical Head gasket leak area (and beyond and more) and we ran it hard. No sign of new oil. Then I left him to it for a week or more. His mechanic tried to get it to leak. He tried to get it to leak. We cannot get it to leak... We have a clean spot around that rear passenger side rear of motor and we cannot get it to show its leak. Anywhere.

This wagon has no history that we know of that we could check. He took the car in on trade. His shop did change the oil just before it was brought over to this shop for me to look at. I saw it first just an hour or two after it had arrived. And we clearly saw the fresh oil on the clean shop floor. And on the belly plastic shield (which we removed to investigate). Had it up and down on the lift. Degreased and washed it.

He and I don't know where to go from here. None of us can get it to leak oil. Price we are agreeing on depends on the fact of a leak or not.

I dunno... got any ideas of how to make a slightly leaking head gasket to show? If it was in my hands I would go far as putting in some dye. But the seller may not want to bother. If I buy it I am buying it on my own eyes and ears.

It is a very low mileage thing. 127K and pretty much mint car with no real other issues. New tires, everything works except the sunroof is slow coming back closed. The wiring harness looks good where I can pull back the covering in three or four places. Looks newish even. We are at $3400 right now so I doubt thats too bad. I would prefer to be at $2500 if I KNEW and could show the headgasket had caused that puddle.

I suppose it is possible that the other shop that changed the oil, dumped oil down on the pan and the trip blew it back off the pan and dripped on the floor. But I hate to conclude that and be wrong.

Any ideas?

Arthur Dalton · #2 12-12-2008, 06:28 PM

There was an oil capacity change TSB from the Factory on that engine...
If you fill the oil level back to the top of the dip-stick and run it , you will then want to check where the head meets the block at the R/R of engine.
Once the oil level gets down to the new capacity , [ which is what has happened in your case] , it is less ikely to leak.
The TSB says to never fill the oil level past the 1/2 way mark on the dip at normal running coolant temp. The capacity was decreased by .5 ltr.

TSB 18-.945
Cap change from 7.5 ltr to 7 ltr..oil/filter capacity . Notation should be changed in owners manual.

TSB 00.57A Ref. 00/134 Level Check Procedure:
Oil level should be check only after the engine is at least 80C and has sat for min of 2 min. The dipstick should then be fully inserted for at least 3 secs. The new level should not excede the 1/2 way mark between Max/Min with car on level ground.
Owners should be notified to refrain from Topping Off oil level beyound 1/2 mark.

Arthur Dalton · #3 12-12-2008, 06:52 PM

Which area are you talking about.
104 engines leak at both ends ..the R/R head gasket seam, passenger side ...and the lip seal up front.

cphilip · #4 12-12-2008, 07:24 PM

We were primarily looking at the right rear Passengers side. We concentrated there because it was " more grime and greasy" accumulation there. But we cleaned that entire side all the way to the front. Although not much build up of greasy grim up front. In fact pretty clean up front. and over half way back. And also we looked there because the oil spot on the undebelly pan (plastic tray) seemed to be located near the back area of that pan were it was dripping out the back to the floor. But probably some blow back was occurring there too.

I did check the dipstick and it was just barely over half way between the marks. It was barely warm at that point and not what I would call Hot like described. However I cannot make any assumption that it was perhaps overfull before that point. It certainly would seem it was very likely.

The total amount of oil leaked, and it was fresh clear oil, was perhaps 3-4 tables spoons. If I would venture a guess on total fresh oil on the pan and floor, I would say about 6-8 table spoons or perhaps a half a cup total all together. But I am sure some could have leaked on the way over and not been left to drip off. But what I saw in all could be considered about 100ml or so.

I can tell you that the shop that would have done the oil change was a Honda dealership. And would not have much experience with Mercedes motors. And the owners manual is missing so they would have had to use some sort of other database to decide how much oil to put in or they just did it by eye.

So it is very likely it as a bit over filled. .5 liters would be a fairly large amount too. But... is leaking then normal when over filled? Seems odd to thinks so but... Seems that overfilling is still showing a leak that needs attention doesn't it? Or is Mercedes saying that if it is overfilled and leaks then the fix is to not overfill it? Or should it be considered a leaking Head Gasket and replaced?

babymog · #5 12-12-2008, 07:43 PM

My feeling is that it was slopped on top of the engine, ran back and off the rear or side, and the top was wiped down well to clean up the visible part of the mess. The rest of the oil made it down the engine when the engine warmed up and was driven to the shop.

cphilip · #6 12-12-2008, 07:52 PM

This was indeed one of our evolving theories.

However Authur's information is very interesting and very close to fitting the whole mystery very well too. And perhaps even more plausible.

Also keep in mind, in normal configuration, there is a large belly pan of plastic that sits below this all and would catch any oil coming off the motor. We removed that for diagnosis and still have it off. But it was on and intact when the oil was changed, car driven from one shop to another (30 some miles or so) and when I first started examining it. And the oil was dripping from the rear of that pan.

However I am trying not to make a $1200 mistake so I want to flesh out and minimize the risk of that as much as possible. If I (we) conclude that he gets more money for it. However... one always knows there is a risk and has to be prepared for it to bite you in the arse later anyway. Just want to go into it as sure as one can be. If it turns out I buy it and it has to be replaced.... so be it I guess. But now would be a good time to know for sure. To my advantage that is.

Arthur Dalton · #7 12-12-2008, 10:15 PM

The thought is that TSB was Benz attempt to cover their ass with the TSB issue...
I would leave the bottom pan off, add some oil and run the car up to temp, even bringing the rpms up for a few min... then I would put cardboard on the ground under the engine overnight...carboard shows an oil leak right up nicely. That will give a good indiction as to the location. Traveling with the car tells nothing b/c of the airflow effectively transferring the oil.....

I have seen many 104s that leak with a full dipstick and they stop with the lower level directions of the TSB. iIrun mine at 1/2 always, even tho I have changed the head gasket many miles ago. They refuse to go into detail on the WHY of the TSB, but it was something b/c there were 2 more follow up ones....and the final one was the their directions of how to check the dipstick [ which I posted]

cphilip · #8 12-12-2008, 10:25 PM

Interesting. I think your onto it Arthur. Explains the leak then no leak. And if one wanted to diagnostically make it leak one would put a half quart of oil in there, go for a run and park it again. Then it should leak if its leaking at the gasket. If no leak them perhaps not a bad gasket. Brilliant. I'll try it!

Thanks!

Now, one more question. If it does leak when really full, but does not leak when at halfway mark, would you say go ahead and change the head gasket immediately or run it until it gets worse? Keeping an eye on the usual things like Antifreeze use and Oil contamination or Antifreeze contamination of course.

Arthur Dalton · #9 12-12-2008, 10:34 PM

That is the general idea...and the RPM thing is to get some substantial oil pressure to help promote the leak.

I have search for the reasoning of the TSB [ Technical Service Bullitin] and could never get an answer...but my own thoughts are the possibility of too much oil pressure when topped off, thereby aiding and abetting to the head gasket leak, or just to much oil generally, causing engine cavitation ...just don't know why, just do know from experience and feedback from members here that read this when I posted the info a few years back that there was a difference.
Did it attribute to a failure ..???? Who knows..
B/c there has to be something to it, I just do it to their recommenation.
Same goes for tranny...an over-filled trans will act up as well.
As in Music, less is more.

Arthur Dalton · #10 12-12-2008, 10:49 PM

If that is the case , then that is your bargaining chip.
Wether it gets worse or not , you will not know until you put some miles on the car. I know guys who have driven 104 with a gasket oil leak for some time b/c the leak is minor and they usually do not seem to effect either the coolant or the compression.
Myself..if it leaks at all, it gets changed.

I would also go into the diagnostic box in front of the battery and get all the stored codes...that would be very telling on that chassis.....and if it has ASR, that is a liability rather than an asset on that chassis.

E320 16 PIN DTC Charts inc. pin 8, pin 14

cphilip · #11 12-13-2008, 09:34 AM

Yes, it does not have ASR so I got even more interested in it for that reason.

I don't have a specific code reader. Only a ODBII reader.

I was only thinking of perhaps running it until I get this other car sold is all. This car would be designed to replace the Wifes Pathfinder as her Grocery getter car. This particular car (now the pathfinder) gets cranked up on Saturdays only for her and her mom to go shopping and they make about a 30 or so mile round trip. My thinking is a Wagon will haul more, ride more comfortably and actually might get a tad better fuel mileage while providing a little easier entry and exit for Mother in law. The Pathfinder gets 16mpg tops so switching to a wagon that uses premium is probably nothing but a straight trade off though. But since we moved down nearer the "flatlands" we don't need a 4 wheel drive vehicle anymore.

But with four cars already for the two of us we certainly don't need another. So if we get this wagon, one of them needs to go. So I would rather get the money out of one of them to get on with the Head gasket fix rather than raid the savings account at this uncertain time. It could take some months to move the Pathfinder.

babymog · #12 12-13-2008, 10:28 AM

"I have search for the reasoning of the TSB [ Technical Service Bullitin] and could never get an answer..."

Many times the reason for TSBs is discussed in the tech section of The Star. If you have the date the TSB was issued, and copies of The Star around that date, it might yield your answer.

deanyel · #13 12-13-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

"I have search for the reasoning of the TSB [ Technical Service Bullitin] and could never get an answer..."

Many times the reason for TSBs is discussed in the tech section of The Star. If you have the date the TSB was issued, and copies of The Star around that date, it might yield your answer.

That would be a great place to go for the purported, pretextual rationale for it.

Arthur Dalton · #14 12-13-2008, 11:31 AM

Been there , Done that .. I am a Star subscriber.

Arthur Dalton · #15 12-13-2008, 11:44 AM

>

All you need is a 12v led from Radio Shack. The part # mentioned is already 12V [ meaning it already has a resistor built-in]...and has leads already on it , so you do not even have to make the tool if you just want a quicky code check on that car. You use it the same way as the tool, but you ground the led lead for the required tme instead of using a push-button sw. But for another buck, get the sw to make it easy........
That is all that is actually needed, right off RS shelf.
If you buy the car, you are going to want to make one with the sw and a chassis anyway....handy tool on that pre-OBD2 system, as you can see on that code page.
The tool is just a copy-cat extension of the built-in led/sw circuit. I justs copied the wiring off the Schematic of the Diagnostic Socket from the built-in one and put the 2 components in a case with leads so it is portable from car to car and also allows you to get into those other modules ..[ which is where the real Mangement codes are] On that chassis , I would be interested in pins 8 and 14, along w/DM . I also have plug ends that convert the leads bananna plugs to the plugs for the 38 pin DS. So, it can be used on all those models. You only need the banannas for that 16 pin box.