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  #1  
Old 02-06-2009, 03:13 PM
Max47's Avatar
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Sudden Stalling Sydrome (SSS)...Case Solved

Hi Guys,

Yeap, I solved my SSS issue 2 days ago but I wanna wait just incase there is other Gremlins in that car.

Most of you know that I'm having a stalling issue with my 190e 2.6 engine 1991, refer to the other thread I post on this issue.

Resume:
This car is stalling when the outside temp. goes to +/- -20C°, on decelaration to make a stop or sharp turn. He will always do that when the engine temp reach 80C°. I have to wait +/- 15 minutes and floor the throttle to re-start the engine. After I re-sart the engine sometime the idle will surge from 400 to 1500rpm, if I put the car in D surging stop.

This SSS issue is going on since winter 2005-2006 and it doesn't get worst or better with the time. Do I have to say that at -20C° with a small wind from the west my troubleshooting time outside on a street corner is about 5 minutes before the blood in my brain turn into slush, my finger into wood piece and all my body start moving like Pinnochio. All that say let's moved on.

This year I really want that car to be fix, so I built the pulse code reader to be able to read fault code on my car if any, I also invest a big 25$ on a multimeter able to read duty-cycle.

With duty-cycle meter I was able to know that my car is running rich at engine temp 80C°, the duty cycle was 20-29%. After the car stall and I was able to re-start sometime the mixture was playing between 5-10%. That's rich, this is when the idle start surging.

With the Pulse reader I was able to read the following code after the car stall.
Code #7 : TNA signal(rpm) read by CFI control module.
Code #27: Data exchange between CFI control module and ignition control module interrupted.

So these 2 code lead me to perform test on Hall Effect Sensor, Crank Position Sensor, EZL ignition control module, Coil, Cap, Rotor, Spark Plug, Wires, Reference Resitor, EHA, all the ground.

I also perform test on part that have nothing to do with code 7 and 27 like ICV, Wot, deceleration shut off, coolant sensor, air flow sensor, intake air sensor and many other parts.

All of them check good or if you like it better they are within the spec.
The only glitch I can find was the Crank Position Sensor he was given me a wierd voltage so I replace it with a new one. For more info refer to my post on Crank Position Sensor.

No, this was not the problem the car was stalling the next morning at the same convenience store. The guy there pay me a coffee and tell me if he have a car like this one he'll throw it on a rock pile.

I was at an hairline to parting out that car and sell it part by part.

I took the decision to forget about the 2 code and concentrate myself on the duty-cycle. Saying to myself the 2 codes might be the result of something else the engineers never think of.

So what is telling the CIS-E control module to lean or enrich the mixture ?
You're right the O2 Sensor, here's a new hunt, last weekend I start testing the O2 sensor and was unable to find the right way to test it. After numerous test that prove nothing I find 2 test that tell me if the CIS-E is able to rich the mixture, the second test to tell me if the CIS-E is able to lean the mixture. Playing with the O2 Sensor itself I was able to brew to other test that will tell me if the O2 Sensor is able to read the exhaust, rich or lean. My O2 Sensor and my CIS-E control module are in working order and pass those test.

If you want to know more about those test refer to this post:

O2 Sensor Under Deep Test...


The test I'm talking about are Test #6, #7, #8, #9, it will take you about 15 to 20 minutes to perform this test.

How come those 2 buggers work perfectly and they cannot adjust the mixture ?

Dan(logonbob) who follow the thread on the O2 Sensor open me a new window when he tell me to look for any crack in the exhaust before the O2sensor. A crack could let the air in the exhaust and than my O2 Sensor will tell the CIS-E to rich the mixture (to much air).

Raise the car with my floor jack, crawl under the car with my light, engine running, I try to find a small leak, from the O2 Sensor to the manifold every thoushand of an inch was inspect. Nada, nothing, not even an hairpin hole that will let the air in the exhaust.

I lower the car take a look at the manifold for hairpin hole or small leak at the gasket, nothing. I look at EGR valve, this one might stick open just a bit and let air into the exhaust. I take it Off, clean it with carb cleaner and make sure it closed tight.

Start the engine, same problem duty-cycle at 20 to 29%.

Ok what's next, I look at the air pump for emission control and ask myself how this thing work.

Get my shop manual to find out, nada, nothing, not a word about that pump, look at the CD, same thing.

I get the info by AlldataDIY on how this pump work, test it and it work like it should. I notice there is a couple rubber hose on the circuit of that pump get them off to a close inspection for hairpin hole. Nada, nothing.

After all those test, I was standing in front of the car, engine running, looking at my duty-cycle meter 20 to 29%. I have no clue to what's next, the rock pile is coming, the more I think what's next the only thing who come to my mind was German Thistle rolling in the desert.

I put my hand on the valve cover and like an automate not knowing what he is doing, put my thumb to the open pipe who normaly go the air filter.

What the hell is this, I feel pressure under my thumb, there is no way, event if it is a German car, I should feel vacuum at that place not a pressure.

Here's the photo:



Next to this pipe there is an other small hose who go to the intake here's the photo:



As soon as I unplug this pipe the duty-cycle start to climb and reach 50% in no time.

I take the valve cover off and with a small piece of hose try to blow or suck in that hole nothing, it is completly block.

I took off the baffle inside the valve cover:



I poor carb cleaner in the small hole on the picture.


This hole have a small orifice in it, I start with a small drill .032inch and end it with a clear orifice at .080 inch. No more gung in it I could saw bare metal.

I put the valve cover on, start the engine, guess what ?

A nice vacuum at the valve cover outlet who go to the air filter and a nice duty-cyle between 49 to 52%.

Dave(slk230red) and Dan(logonbob), this photo are for you guys:



The problem was not air in the exhaust but was a motor who cannot breath.

You should see the guy at the convenience store yesterday morning when I drive to the gaz pump with the car, without stalling.

He say, hey you fix your car?

Yeap, I got the gremlins.

Then he ask me:

My brother in law have a Honda, is at the garage for the last to week and the guys there could not make it run. Do you want to take a look at it ?

I put the best smile I can on my face and answer.

Tell him to put his rice car on the rock pile.

We both start laughing.

I know I'm the only one with that small hole block but next time you open your hood just unplug the hose that goes to you air filter and put your thumb on the end at the valve cover and feel the vacuum of it, just so you know your is ok. If you don't feel the vacuum,well you're the only with this trouble since I fix mine.

Max

PS. If you're living in the Montreal area and experience SSS with a 190e I might be interested at troubleshooting your car at my place or at your place, just PM me.

Last edited by Max47; 02-07-2009 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Fixing the link to O2 sensor
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2009, 10:04 PM
ILUVMILS's Avatar
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I'm impressed, really!!! Talk about persistence. Congratulations!!! I hope your car runs for another twenty years.
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  #3  
Old 02-06-2009, 11:07 PM
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wow-good catch. being in the business, we are not allowed to take as much time as you have, but, your experience will teach me and others in what to do with another stalling problem. again, you are commended, sir! thanks, chuck.
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  #4  
Old 02-06-2009, 11:15 PM
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Huh....I'll keep that in mind! Your motor looks really sludgy in there though, do you run dino oil or synthetic??? Ours is spotless inside and runs Mobil 1 0w40....
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'15 GLK250 Bluetec 75k - mine - (OC-80,500)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 6k - wifes (OC-10k)
'01 E320 Wagon - 159k - mine (OC-160,000)
'89 420SEL 166k - mine (OC-167,000)
'01 E320 - 168k - dad's (OC-171,500)
'07 E350 Wagon - 131k - dad's (OC-132,500)
'01 SL500 - 48k - dad's (OC-52,000)
'09 E350 4matic Sedan - 128k - Brothers (OC-128,000)
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2009, 08:16 AM
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Hooray for persistence and for a happy ending! BTW, is it my imagination or is your air intake duct loose from the front of the air cleaner box?
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Anthracite Grey/Palomino
Owned since new and still going strong and smooth
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Past Mercedes-Benz:
1986 190E Baby Benz
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2009, 08:47 AM
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Congratulations Max47 you solved your problem. The engine is it a M103?

On mine 1988 there are hoses go to air intake and the second on intake manifold. Which one precisely have you cleaned?
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Keep us posted especially if your problem is solved
Present cars:
My car: E-class 420CDI, 2008, W211, V8,[/B] 50 000km

Wife's one: C-class 220CDI Sport Coupé, Euro, 2002, W203. 245000km

Son's one: GLK class 220CDI, 2009, W204

Sold E class 260E, W124, 1988 beloved car sold after 489 000 kilometres of reliable services (engine M103, clutch and 5 speed manual gear box all original).
E-class, W210 320CDI, 2000[/B], 225 000km, Sold
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2009, 10:52 AM
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Good morning,

First thanks to you guys for taking the time to read my long post, sorry for my english, this is a second language for me.

Iluvmils, may I borrow your guy in a wheelchair for my signature? I love it.

I'm impress by your signature, a lot of experience under your belt.

20 years for the same dealership.

I know what that mean, I've been working 23 years for the same dealership, Over the years I meet some really good mechanic but I meet a lot of grease monkey too and some of those guys will never learn troubleshooting even if they stay in the trade all there life.

Quote:
wow-good catch. being in the business, we are not allowed to take as much time as you have, but, your experience will teach me and others in what to do with another stalling problem.
Porkface, I understand what you mean, but with all the MB tech here on the forum, we should have more Case Solved story, let share your experience guys. Sharing what you learn will not take it away from you believe me. It will only moved you to an other level.

Quote:
Your motor looks really sludgy in there though
PawoSD, just an illusion the motor is pretty clean in fact, keep in mind this motor operate in extreme condition going from -20C° sometime below that, to warm engine at 80C° within 15 minutes after the start. This is a lot of stress, over the year I saw motor building a lot of condensation in the valve cover, giving you a kind of white slush in there.

Quote:
BTW, is it my imagination or is your air intake duct loose from the front of the air cleaner box?
Cal, no everything is fine, this is the way it fit.

Quote:
The engine is it a M103?
cc260e, yeap, M103 engine.

Quote:
On mine 1988 there are hoses go to air intake and the second on intake manifold. Which one precisely have you cleaned?
cc260e, refer to the photos at the beginning of this post, there is 2 outlets on my valve cover one big (about 3/4inch) and a small one (about 3/8inch). The small one is the one with the orifice pre-size inside, again make sure you clean it with a small drill .080inch, this hole could be completely blocked or just partialy blocked. Keep in mind this orifice does not go from .080inch to .000inch over night it get glogged with time. Do the drill test it's like a go-no-go gauge.

Max
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:04 AM
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Posts: 487
Thanks MAX47 for the quick reply,

If I understand correctly, the little pipe is clogged on the inner side of the valve cover.

When I remove the hose, the engine stalls immediately
__________________
Keep us posted especially if your problem is solved
Present cars:
My car: E-class 420CDI, 2008, W211, V8,[/B] 50 000km

Wife's one: C-class 220CDI Sport Coupé, Euro, 2002, W203. 245000km

Son's one: GLK class 220CDI, 2009, W204

Sold E class 260E, W124, 1988 beloved car sold after 489 000 kilometres of reliable services (engine M103, clutch and 5 speed manual gear box all original).
E-class, W210 320CDI, 2000[/B], 225 000km, Sold
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2009, 01:01 PM
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Posts: 43
Recap.....

Hi cc260E,

Quote:
When I remove the hose, the engine stalls immediately
This is normal, you just throw the duty-cyle to the lean side.

Quote:
If I understand correctly, the little pipe is clogged on the inner side of the valve cover.
Not really, let me recap. with photo:



On the photo the red mark I do inside the circle, it is where the orifice is located.

Again you do not have to removed your valve cover to clean this orifice, just unplug the hose and insert your .080inch (2.0mm) drill in, then find the small orifice and try to go in the orifice, the drill should go in about 2 inch (50mm). If it doesn't go, start with a smaller drill and work your way up to the .080inch(2.0mm) drill

Is it clear now?

Max
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2009, 04:15 PM
pawoSD's Avatar
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 14,998
Ours seems to be clean inside despite the temps we've had around here....between 0 degrees and 20F.....cold!
__________________
-diesel is not just a fuel, its a way of life-
'15 GLK250 Bluetec 75k - mine - (OC-80,500)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 6k - wifes (OC-10k)
'01 E320 Wagon - 159k - mine (OC-160,000)
'89 420SEL 166k - mine (OC-167,000)
'01 E320 - 168k - dad's (OC-171,500)
'07 E350 Wagon - 131k - dad's (OC-132,500)
'01 SL500 - 48k - dad's (OC-52,000)
'09 E350 4matic Sedan - 128k - Brothers (OC-128,000)
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  #11  
Old 02-07-2009, 04:56 PM
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Posts: 487
Hi MAX47,

many thanks for your replies.

It is clear now absolutely clear.

I will try on my car. It is good to know also that there is no need to remove the valve cover.

I assume the clogging come from the oil vapors that accumulates there.
__________________
Keep us posted especially if your problem is solved
Present cars:
My car: E-class 420CDI, 2008, W211, V8,[/B] 50 000km

Wife's one: C-class 220CDI Sport Coupé, Euro, 2002, W203. 245000km

Son's one: GLK class 220CDI, 2009, W204

Sold E class 260E, W124, 1988 beloved car sold after 489 000 kilometres of reliable services (engine M103, clutch and 5 speed manual gear box all original).
E-class, W210 320CDI, 2000[/B], 225 000km, Sold
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2009, 07:04 PM
ILUVMILS's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max47 View Post
Iluvmils, may I borrow your guy in a wheelchair for my signature? I love it.
It's funny you should ask. I've recently been thinking of updating my signature. The guy in the wheelchair has served me well. It's only fair that his image be used in the signature of a Forum member as determined and diligent as you are. I'll edit my signature ASAP.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2009, 06:47 AM
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Thanks...

Hi,

Iluvmils, thanks for your good comment, I gladly accept your oldman in wheelchair.

Max
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This is Persistence and Determination
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2009, 09:15 AM
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Max
Good job with your analytical approach.

Here is an old trick for ECU demand input check.

With car at normal operating temp and heater circuit stll hooked up, Unplug the 02 sig wire and hold the wire going to ECU in one hand..grab the Pos. bat post with your other hand..this gets 1/1.5 V signal to ecu . Monitor the 02 rection with DMM as you switch on/off of your hand at bat post.
Very High Tech, huh????



I actually use a DSO scope for this stuff so I can get cross count speed and V amplitude of the wave pattern... but this little trick works for a quicky test of ECU reaction to 02 sig input.
Another trick for 02 sensor reaction is to unplug sensor sig wire and monitor its output while you put you thumb over a decent size vac line..as you take your thumb on/off the vac line , you will see if the sesnor reacts to the lean condition you are causing...you are simply using the engine as a rich/lean condition generator...can do the same by partial blocking of intake air to cause rich condition...and on HFM systems , you can do the same busimply taking the vac line off the fuel pressure regulator. Crude, but effective and fast checks...........
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Last edited by Arthur Dalton; 02-08-2009 at 09:40 AM.
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2009, 09:42 AM
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I like it...

Hi Arthur,

Quote:
With car at normal operating temp and heater circuit stll hooked up, Unplug the 02 sig wire and hold the wire going to ECU in one hand..grab the Pos. bat post with your other hand..this gets 1/1.5 V signal to ecu . Monitor the 02 rection with DMM as you switch on/off of your hand at bat post.
Very High Tech, huh????
I like it, this is exactly the kind of tools I like to have in my tools box... I can't loose it.

It remind me to old tech. I work with when I start as a mechanic, one day I saw him taking a coat hanger and cut the end to open it. He then rolled the middle of the coat hanger around a 2 inch pipe to make some sort of loop like a resistance. slide 2 small pieces of wood at the end of the coat hanger and then he just plug one end of the hanger to the battery neg and quickly put the other to positive side of the battery.

The loop glow cherry red, he then turn at me and say battery is good otherwise it will be dark red or yellow.

Hey dude, don't do that, the week after this, the boss who was there too, bought a brand new AVR tester.

Max
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This is Persistence and Determination
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