Transmission fluid change causes damage... say dealership - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Whiskeydan · #1 06-12-2013, 04:21 PM

We just bought a 2002 E320 W210 and failed to get the service records. The car is in excellent condition and appears to be very well taken care of.
My wife stopped by the dealership today to pick up a part for the SLK and some proper 236.10 MB transmission fluid. Just out of curiosity and not to do redundant service she ask if they could look up the "NetStar VMI", vehicle master inquiry, for the vehicle. She said they looked shocked and implied it was 'top secret' info. Ask her why she needed to know and she mentioned we would like to do a transmission fluid, filter change unless it has been recently performed. They suggest she talk to the service adviser.
The SA told her he would NOT recommend changing the fluid as new fluid will cause dirt and worn particles to be suspended and possible destroy the 722.6 transmission.
She called me and relayed the info he gave her. I mentioned that MB also had claimed that transmission was "sealed for life" once upon a time.

Whats the opinion of doing service on a 145K mile 722.6 with unknown history?

pawoSD · #2 06-12-2013, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

We just bought a 2002 E320 W210 and failed to get the service records. The car is in excellent condition and appears to be very well taken care of.
My wife stopped by the dealership today to pick up a part for the SLK and some proper 236.10 MB transmission fluid. Just out of curiosity and not to do redundant service she ask if they could look up the "NetStar VMI", vehicle master inquiry, for the vehicle. She said they looked shocked and implied it was 'top secret' info. Ask her why she needed to know and she mentioned we would like to do a transmission fluid, filter change unless it has been recently performed. They suggest she talk to the service adviser.
The SA told her he would NOT recommend changing the fluid as new fluid will cause dirt and worn particles to be suspended and possible destroy the 722.6 transmission.
She called me and relayed the info he gave her. I mentioned that MB also had claimed that transmission was "sealed for life" once upon a time.

Whats the opinion of doing service on a 145K mile 722.6 with unknown history?

My brother is having this service done by our MB dealer this friday on the same exact car...a 2002 E320 special edition with 136k, we got them to agree to do it free as part of the car purchase deal. I think it had it last done about 50-60k ago as we do have a service record that says it was done in the past 5 years. They said nothing about not doing it or damage risk. I would imagine its fine. Original fluid with 145k on it is not doing the trans any good, thats for sure!

Whiskeydan · #3 06-12-2013, 04:40 PM

You might check to see what fluid they will be using. When my wife ask for 236.10 they told her they only use one type. Same fluid as in the newer 7 speed 722.9 transmission which requires 236.14 IIRC.

From what I have read the newer fluid is lower in viscosity and does not work well in the older 722.6 5 speed which called for 236.10 fluid.

They claim it is "backwards compatible" but who knows...

Gilly · #4 06-12-2013, 05:26 PM

Here is a post that is almost 10 yrs old, so is a bit dated info, but you might find it useful. It is a copy of a "bulletin" or info sheet I received in MB class for the 722.6:
1999 S500 with 722.6 Automatic Transmission Filled for life?

I don't think it will really "harm" the trans. I do stand more towards mercedes corner in that I don't really think it will help anything either. It may sound fatalistic, but i think either you have a "good" one or you don't, changing the fluid won't affect things one way or another. Since there is no way to test a particular individual transmissions both ways (changed vs unchanged) I guess we never really know for sure. But I can relate one car in particular where I used to work where the vehicle (300D with the 722.6) went at least over 350,000mi without a change of fluid and was doing just fine.

97 SL320 · #5 06-12-2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

Just out of curiosity and not to do redundant service she ask if they could look up the "NetStar VMI", vehicle master inquiry, for the vehicle. She said they looked shocked and implied it was 'top secret' info.

VMI info is to be used by the dealer only and isn't officialy released to the consumer level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

The SA told her he would NOT recommend changing the fluid as new fluid will cause dirt and worn particles to be suspended and possible destroy the 722.6 transmission.

Dormant dirt and sludge can be cut loose by new fluid no matter what brand of trans. There are a few work arounds:

Change a quart or two of fluid every 6 months / year for a couple of years then change the filter and fluid in the pan.

Change filter and only the fluid in the pan, then be very aware of transmission operation. If it acts up at all, stop driving and pull valve body for cleaning.

Draw a fluid sample and have it analyzed, if it has not deteriorated, leave it in. ( Maybe pull the pan, replace filter and reuse old fluid if it tests good. )

Whiskeydan · #6 06-13-2013, 12:00 AM

I have three 722.6 vehicles. Two do not have a torque converter drain so I assume to do a proper fluid change a flush is required. I had plans to do all three car as I like to stay on top of things but I wonder if this is wise with the information given.

I question the 'vested interest' of the dealer suggestions nowadays. Everybody seems to have a hand out and all I am only interested in is what will offer my wife a safe reliable car for the next three or so years. I drive a 85 300SD which I know well and have no worries.

After paying $30K for a VW Jetta TDI then having to spend another $10K to keep it going has left a bad taste regarding new(er) vehicles. I sold the Jetta and bought a the E320 which is an upgrade but we will miss the 45 mpg.

It seems like the 722.6 is pretty robust as long as it has the proper fluid level.
I just think replacing the filter and fluid in the pan would be wise. And, I'm curious to what I may find in the pan.

pawoSD · #7 06-13-2013, 12:43 AM

What is this tale you tell of 10k to keep a 30k TDI going?

What happened with the TDI? What year?

Whiskeydan · #8 06-13-2013, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

What is this tale you tell of 10k to keep a 30k TDI going?

What happened with the TDI? What year?

06 Jetta TDI ordered new with all the options. Took it in to dealer for service religiously. Prior to warranty expiring it developed a rattle near the bell housing. Dealer says they all do that, it's normal. Approx 20K miles after warranty the "dual mass flywheel" failed. Followed by the EGR cooler, AC variable displacement compressor valve, broken wiring harness in the drivers door jam boot, sagging headliner, faulty key lock tumbler, truck latch failure causing trunk to open while on the hwy, and camshaft going flat due to poor design of the "PD" engine. The camshaft has very little surface area due to having three lobs per cylinder. Just a poor design.
We always used the VW specified oil and changed it before the schedule.

Oh yea... and as a PM add a timing belt, water pump, expensive DSG service...

It was a fantastic driving car... it just fell apart.

Good friend of mine has a 06 Jetta with a failing DSG transmission. Cost of repair exceeds value of the car.

I will say that the brakes lasted forever. I still have a pad set that never got installed as they always looked 75% when I checked.

And, google 2009 VW TDI HPFP failure. They seem to have made more mistakes.

I will never own another VW product.

Peter Guenther · #9 06-13-2013, 08:46 AM

The sealed for life trans fluid is kind of a hoax. I nquired at my local dealership and I was first told the material from the clutches made it better as it aged. I spoke to the shop foreman later, and he informed me to change the oil at 50/60 which I did, he confided that some are perfectly clean, other have residue in the pans. If they power flush the trans it could stir up sludge, drop the pan and change the filter. The "sealed for life" means out of warranty untill it breaks.

pawoSD · #10 06-13-2013, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

06 Jetta TDI ordered new with all the options. Took it in to dealer for service religiously. Prior to warranty expiring it developed a rattle near the bell housing. Dealer says they all do that, it's normal. Approx 20K miles after warranty the "dual mass flywheel" failed. Followed by the EGR cooler, AC variable displacement compressor valve, broken wiring harness in the drivers door jam boot, sagging headliner, faulty key lock tumbler, truck latch failure causing trunk to open while on the hwy, and camshaft going flat due to poor design of the "PD" engine. The camshaft has very little surface area due to having three lobs per cylinder. Just a poor design.
We always used the VW specified oil and changed it before the schedule.

Oh yea... and as a PM add a timing belt, water pump, expensive DSG service...

It was a fantastic driving car... it just fell apart.

Good friend of mine has a 06 Jetta with a failing DSG transmission. Cost of repair exceeds value of the car.

I will say that the brakes lasted forever. I still have a pad set that never got installed as they always looked 75% when I checked.

And, google 2009 VW TDI HPFP failure. They seem to have made more mistakes.

I will never own another VW product.

Yeah I have read extensively about the "awesome" PD tdi's....ours is the new CDI engine (2009 onward) which is completely different in design. I also went with the 6 speed manual to avoid the terrible DSG. Not only are those transmissions weak, they don't even shift that nice. So far we have put nearly 1000 miles on it in 5ish weeks and its been flawless. Once the clutch was broken in it has been much more pleasant to drive. Initially it would engage nearly 100% within about 5mm of pedal travel and cause a stall. After a few hundred miles its been perfect and is much smoother. The build quality of the car is quite fantastic in my opinion, it feels solid as a block of metal and the interior is very well furnished for the TDI trim. We got ours for just under 24k (no DSG, Navi, or sunroof)

I will have my brother confirm with our dealer which fluid they plan to put in his 722.6 tomorrow....our dealer around here is pretty top notch, both in VW and MB...

compu_85 · #11 06-13-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

...I also went with the 6 speed manual to avoid the terrible DSG. Not only are those transmissions weak, they don't even shift that nice.

Going with the manual instead of a DSG didn't let you avoid a dual mass flywheel. It will be the thing that fails first (not the clutch). The one on my 99.5 made it 220k miles thankfully, but unlike the 5 speed stick where you can put in a SMF from an older car, you have to get another $$$ DMF for the 6 speed. Once you start noticing additional vibrations plan on changing it ASAP, when they completely fail they can blow apart and take the transmission with them.

Note that DMFs are a problem with every single car that uses them. It's not just VW.

You should drive a DSG with the Malone tune... very nice! We'll probably get ours tuned before too much longer.

The issue with the camshaft is the ramp angle... for some reason VW designed it with angles suitable for solid lifters not hydro lifters... and it beats the crap out of them. Surface area is a part of the problem, but not the main reason PDs camshafts go flat.

-J

engatwork · #12 06-13-2013, 10:25 AM

I have changed transmission fluid and filter in them at that mileage with no issues. You do want to replace the harness sealing sleeve during the service. I would recommend doing it.

alabbasi · #13 06-13-2013, 10:34 AM

Dan

The .14 superseded the .10 and .12 fluids, but MB documentation states that it's backwards compatible. Changing the fluid in the pan is pretty easy on a 2002 but there is no drain plug in the torque converter (there is one in my 1997) so you'd have to flush the fluid through the transmission cooler hoses.

I plan on doing this on my 02 in the next couple of weeks and have picked up a couple of cases of .14 approved fluid at about $5 / quart.

Whiskeydan · #14 06-13-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

Dan

The .14 superseded the .10 and .12 fluids, but MB documentation states that it's backwards compatible. Changing the fluid in the pan is pretty easy on a 2002 but there is no drain plug in the torque converter (there is one in my 1997) so you'd have to flush the fluid through the transmission cooler hoses.

I plan on doing this on my 02 in the next couple of weeks and have picked up a couple of cases of .14 approved fluid at about $5 / quart.

Al, Whats this $5/qt fluid you speak of???

I believe a complete flush would be best if the existing fluid is unknown. PO may have used a fluid that is not compatible with whats going back in.

Or, if I knew it had 236.10 currently, I would just drop the pan install new filter and refill with the same fluid.

I need to find/make a service dipstick. I tried a piece of stiff insulated wire and could not manage to snake it through the tube to the bottom of the pan.
I'd like to know if the level is correct before I drive too far.

alabbasi · #15 06-13-2013, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

Al, Whats this $5/qt fluid you speak of???

I believe a complete flush would be best if the existing fluid is unknown. PO may have used a fluid that is not compatible with whats going back in.

Or, if I knew it had 236.10 currently, I would just drop the pan install new filter and refill with the same fluid.

I need to find/make a service dipstick. I tried a piece of stiff insulated wire and could not manage to snake it through the tube to the bottom of the pan.
I'd like to know if the level is correct before I drive too far.

Shell ATF-134, I have a spare case if you need it. Also can get a dip stick for you through my wholesaler if you need it.