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  #1  
Old 07-08-2013, 08:59 PM
Brabus 3.6-24's Avatar
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Question Ratling engine sound what is wrong?

I got an W124 from 1991 model 300E-24
It got the M104.980 Engine 3.0 Liter with 24 Valves.

I got this ratling sound at the top of the engine
And the sound can sometimes go from cyl. 6 to cyl. 1 or stay in the midle of the engine, but always from the top of the engine.

The strange thing is that it is only there when the engine is cold and it goes away as the engine get hot.
When driving temperature is reached, then the sound is completly gone.
And the next strange thing is the sound is only there at 1500 rpm.

The best way for you to help me, is to hear the sound for your self.
So here is a link to a you tube video I uploadet.

The sound has been there for the last 10.000 Km. and has got a litle bit worse but not much.

I have resently changed the oil pump and oil sprayers, but that dident helped at all.
A very big job by the way to get that Oil sump off the engine on a M104 in a W124 chassis

300E-24 engine klicking Sound only at 1500 omd/min - YouTube


Last edited by Brabus 3.6-24; 07-10-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2013, 03:19 AM
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timing chain tensioner

That sounds like the timing chain hitting a guide or something. Maybe your tensioner is failing. I'd do the entire chain set if it is determined to be the culprit. I'm not sure about the m103 but the m110 looks very challenging to complete. You can use a piece of hose to help determine where the noise is coming from by sticking one end to your ear and the other end to the suspected area. The chain would be making noise in the front of the engine only.
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  #3  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Doner View Post
That sounds like the timing chain hitting a guide or something. Maybe your tensioner is failing. I'd do the entire chain set if it is determined to be the culprit. I'm not sure about the m103 but the m110 looks very challenging to complete. You can use a piece of hose to help determine where the noise is coming from by sticking one end to your ear and the other end to the suspected area. The chain would be making noise in the front of the engine only.
The timing chain was changed 4 years ago.
But with a very low cust part.
The chain tensioner has just been out and re fitted do to a change of the front cover U gasket that is known to fail.
The tensioner seemed strong and was "as always" very hard to schrew in place, because you have to Press it in while you schrew it on.

I asked the Mercedes dealer and they told me the tensioner is not available anymore, out of production
So I checked it my self on the EPC and it says in the system that it is so

But I have bought a new chain to day, just waiting for it to arrive with the mail.

Another thing I discovered 2 years ago when I made a head gasket replacement, was that the. Valves had made contact with the pistons
But only on the edge of the piston valve pockets.
And the sound was also there at that time.

So my own guess is also that the chain has stretched and made the timing out of its place.

But could that really be the case, I know for a fact the timing and cam shafts was set in the right position with the 4mm dowel holes to the top edge of the cylinder head and the inlet cam shaft adjuster was set clockwise as it should.

So the rattling sound must come from the valves hitting the pistons I guess because the sound is not coming from the front always but from the middle and sometimes back of the engine.

But why is it then disappearing when the engine gets to operating temperature

Does any of this info give you more answers ?
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  #4  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:19 AM
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sounds like you have a bad hyd. lifter.They can stick until engine warms,you may have more than one bad. My best guess.I open valve cover and take a look
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  #5  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsinner111 View Post
sounds like you have a bad hyd. lifter.They can stick until engine warms,you may have more than one bad. My best guess.I open valve cover and take a look
Im not quite with you on this one.
Because as you can see, the sound is very stady at 1500 rpm.
And only at 1500 rpm. not above and not under.
And I would expect worn out lifters or blocked to give this sound not only at 1500 rpm then. but also under 1500 rpm then.
The sound is also a bit more heavy duty ratling metal to metal sound that I have experienced with worn out or bloked lifters.

My best guess is that the chain are worn out and thenb strethed to the point were the timing has changed so much, so the valves are hitting the pistons.
This would might give sence because exactly at 1500 Rpms. the cam adjuster changed to the advanced setting og the inlet cam.
But then why is then going away already above 1600 rpm where the cam are still in the advanced setting all the way up to around 4500 rpm.

And most likely lifters are beginning to drop oil presure with a hot engine oil not cold.
So it would be the other way around with hydraulic lifters or am I wrong?

Im a litle lost in this problem.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:18 AM
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If its only happening at a very specific RPM it might be something else rattling at the harmonics of that specific RPM....a chain will usually make noise all the time.
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  #7  
Old 07-09-2013, 11:19 AM
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Here are some fotos of the resent timing case gasket change.
Attached Thumbnails
Ratling engine sound what is wrong?-.jpg   Ratling engine sound what is wrong?-f.jpg   Ratling engine sound what is wrong?-g.jpg   Ratling engine sound what is wrong?-image-4-.jpg  
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  #8  
Old 07-09-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brabus 3.6-24 View Post
But then why is then going away already above 1600 rpm where the cam are still in the advanced setting all the way up to around 4500 rpm.

And most likely lifters are beginning to drop oil presure with a hot engine oil not cold.
So it would be the other way around with hydraulic lifters or am I wrong?

Im a litle lost in this problem.
With regard to oil temperature & pressure, the leakdown rate of the compensators (lifters) will be slightly greater at higher temperatures, which will in turn lead to slightly later timing and lower lift of the inlet valves, which may be just enough to eliminate the valve to piston interference.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:14 PM
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Well I have checked the engine running without the belt, and the sound is still there, laud and clear.
as I stand next to the front whell "either side" the sound is so clearly comming from between cylinder 3 and 4 just right under the valve cover.
Its very clearly when you move your head from side to side just above the valve cover.

and it almost sound like the whole stuff inside is ratling around, like something is realy about to snap or have a huge tolerence play to make this sound.
Not so cool
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:16 PM
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Have Mercedes discontinued the timing chain tensioner or is it just out-of-stock?

That's a concern if it has been discontinued on a car as young as 1991. If they do it for one engine variant, then they will probably do it for all engines in the W124 generation...and maybe the W126 and W140 too.
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Last edited by benedict; 07-12-2013 at 08:17 PM. Reason: Forgot question mark
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:00 PM
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I have concerns about your tensioner re-installation technique. It should not be hard to screw into place. It should be disassembled and the main body installed first, which is easy. Then the plunger and spring followed by the cap. Screwing in a whole tensioner at once is a recipie for disaster.

That said, it sounds too frequent to me for it to be valvetrain related. I'd be suspicious of the bottom end, possibly a broken piston skirt allowing too much piston rocking.
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2013, 02:17 PM
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I would think it is a lifter leaking down at the given rpm. Below and above 1500 rpm the oil flow to the lifter exceeds the leak down rate but at around 1500 rpm the leak down rate exceeds the oil flow to that lifter causing extremely excessive valve to cam clearance. A friend's Altima 3.5 SE sounded like that at a given rpm but sounded normal either above or below that narrow rpm band. Turned out the engine was low on oil. I couldn't believe the valve train on the Altima could be that noisy. Mark
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  #13  
Old 07-15-2013, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
I have concerns about your tensioner re-installation technique. It should not be hard to screw into place. It should be disassembled and the main body installed first, which is easy. Then the plunger and spring followed by the cap. Screwing in a whole tensioner at once is a recipie for disaster.

That said, it sounds too frequent to me for it to be valvetrain related. I'd be suspicious of the bottom end, possibly a broken piston skirt allowing too much piston rocking.
My technic is right.
I would never do the whole tensioner at one time, it is self explaning, because if you do that, you will see that the tensioner goes all the way trough and it will not make any sence to max out the spring before you put the tensioner in.
But if you ever tried to mount a chain tensioner in this model, you would know you have to press in the spring while it gives you a lot tension while you have to screw it on, can be quite a chalange even for a mechanik.

I always do it by the manual from Mercedes:
http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/104/05-3100.pdf

Your suspicius of the broken piston skirt has been in my consirn as well, because it sounds just like that.
But as I resently changed my oil pump in the seach for removing this sound I cheked all my pistons skirts, and there was nothing broken and no bad burned coloring or other suspicius signs of things going wrong.

Thats why im totally lost in this sound.
But the sound is deffently coming from the top not the bottom end.
So perhaps it could be the piton wrist pin og rod
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  #14  
Old 07-15-2013, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benedict View Post
Have Mercedes discontinued the timing chain tensioner or is it just out-of-stock?

That's a concern if it has been discontinued on a car as young as 1991. If they do it for one engine variant, then they will probably do it for all engines in the W124 generation...and maybe the W126 and W140 too.
Yes I was VERY serpriced as well about this info.
But I use the Mercedes EPC net program my self and it tells it right in the system that this item is no longer awailable

This number is the complete chain tensioner "kit"
120 050 02 11 and this is not awailable anymore.
But you can not buy the trust pin seperatly
Only the compresion spring and the detent spring can be bought seperately.
See pictur.

But perhaps the unofficail dealers have som unoriginal parts that is still in production
Attached Thumbnails
Ratling engine sound what is wrong?-chain-tensioner.jpg  
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  #15  
Old 07-22-2013, 02:47 AM
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Have you tried using a stethoscope to isolate where the noise is coming from more closely?
My thoughts are that it has to be the timing chain or the somewhere in the valve train. I would think if it was the timing chain, then you would be able to tell by now (due to wear on the guides and play in the chain).

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