Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:48 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
1998 W140 S500 no start, "start error" displayed on odometer

Car in question is a 1998 S500 W140 USA version.

Up until it didn't, the car ran and started fine.

Went to start up the car last week, and the car cranked, then would fire for a second, then die. I could see the tach jump, as well as the oil pressure gage before the car died.

First thought was a bad key (rfid chip). Unfortunately, my wife cannot find the spare key she had while we were on vacation two weeks ago. (I always like to have a spare key with me when out of town.)

So, I make the trek down to the dealer for another key. Got the key from the dealer and it has the same symptoms as the original key. Note: The new dealer key does not remotely operate the locks. I swapped batteries, between the new key and original key (which were two months old) and no change. The original key still locks/unlocks, the new one does not. I know that the batteries in the key do not affect starting, but it makes me wonder about the veracity of the new key, as in, did I get a bad key from the dealer. Both keys do turn the tumbler and crank the engine.

I also traced the wire from the transponder ring (coil) to the black box above the steering column (part # 129 820 37 26, SIEMENS SWK4 680 PA6-GR30), and disconnected the transponder ring pigtail and checked the transponder for continuity, and it showed 0 ohms resistance.

Doing a data dump on the car with the XENTRY system, I get a code ME1R, "P1570 DAS to engine control module N3/10 faulty".

Testing for actual values, I get:

57 DAS and ECM compatible?

Yes

53 ECM identified?

Yes

54 ECM locked?

Yes

55 Start auth?

No (Ahah!)

56 Vehicle locked with DAS?

Yes

66 Number of starts with non-locked ECM?

Starts=0

Other info displayed:

Code# 032302064
Code unit# D7F650
Chassis # ---------375

And a reference to DAS control unit 82801.

So far I have not found the location of N3/10 or 82801, which might be the same module....


Anyone have any suggestions on what to do next?

Thanks for any thoughts!

Jim

__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue

Last edited by JimFreeh; 08-31-2016 at 08:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-31-2016, 07:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,564
Still sounds like a bad key. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen the dealer goof it. Although for giggles I'd disconnect anything else on the engine CAN bus like the ETC and ABS and see if you can get start authorization. Every once in a blue moon you can have another module on the CAN bus putting out enough noise that the authorization message cant get through.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197 intake cam w/20 advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4 ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-31-2016, 07:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,515
The black box that the transponder ring plugs into is the DAS box. This takes the code from the key, if it matches the code in the box, it then sends a signal to the engine computer to turn on fuel. The DAS box also sends a new code to the key for the next start.

There is a white connector with 2 green wires that plugs into the DAS box , this is the CAN bus communication wire that lets it talk to the engine computer make sure that is plugged in.

To resync the remote locks, point the fob towards the IR receiver, press the button 2 x , insert the key in the ignition and turn it to run. The 2x press alerts the IR lock system that a new key is being set up and turning it to run verifies that it is a real key not a hack. I'm not sure if the DAS issue will prevent registering the key.

I'm pretty sure if you unplug all 3 plugs from the DAS box, the car will start stall rather than just not try to fire.

If you get parts as a test, you need a key / DAS box / engine computer all from the same car. Mix and match won't work.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-31-2016, 08:13 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
Still sounds like a bad key. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen the dealer goof it. Although for giggles I'd disconnect anything else on the engine CAN bus like the ETC and ABS and see if you can get start authorization. Every once in a blue moon you can have another module on the CAN bus putting out enough noise that the authorization message cant get through.

I'd love to find the original spare key......

However my wife swears she put it in the key drawer. And those of you who are married, know that sometimes it's better not to pursue certain lines of questioning... even if you *know* the key never made it to the drawer.

Jim
__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-31-2016, 08:18 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
The black box that the transponder ring plugs into is the DAS box. This takes the code from the key, if it matches the code in the box, it then sends a signal to the engine computer to turn on fuel. The DAS box also sends a new code to the key for the next start.

There is a white connector with 2 green wires that plugs into the DAS box , this is the CAN bus communication wire that lets it talk to the engine computer make sure that is plugged in.

To resync the remote locks, point the fob towards the IR receiver, press the button 2 x , insert the key in the ignition and turn it to run. The 2x press alerts the IR lock system that a new key is being set up and turning it to run verifies that it is a real key not a hack. I'm not sure if the DAS issue will prevent registering the key.

I'm pretty sure if you unplug all 3 plugs from the DAS box, the car will start stall rather than just not try to fire.

If you get parts as a test, you need a key / DAS box / engine computer all from the same car. Mix and match won't work.
Thanks, I'll give the key synch a try tomorrow.

I did remove and reset the three connectors to DAS box, with no change.

Fiddling with the XENTRY diagnostics, it seems to me that I have the ability to marry a new component to the car. Given the code and info in the OP, would the DAS box be the culprit in this case, assuming the new key is good?

Jim
__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-01-2016, 08:08 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
The black box that the transponder ring plugs into is the DAS box. This takes the code from the key, if it matches the code in the box, it then sends a signal to the engine computer to turn on fuel. The DAS box also sends a new code to the key for the next start.

There is a white connector with 2 green wires that plugs into the DAS box , this is the CAN bus communication wire that lets it talk to the engine computer make sure that is plugged in.

To resync the remote locks, point the fob towards the IR receiver, press the button 2 x , insert the key in the ignition and turn it to run. The 2x press alerts the IR lock system that a new key is being set up and turning it to run verifies that it is a real key not a hack. I'm not sure if the DAS issue will prevent registering the key.

I'm pretty sure if you unplug all 3 plugs from the DAS box, the car will start stall rather than just not try to fire.

If you get parts as a test, you need a key / DAS box / engine computer all from the same car. Mix and match won't work.

Well, I tried to synch the new key as you outlined. No luck.

I did find one new DASmodule @ parts.com, I may go that route if I can verify that the XENTRY system will allow me to program the new module. Playing with the menus yesterday,it looked like the XENTRY system allows me mate the DAS with the ECU and key.

Also saw this thread:

W202 P1570 DAS Fault - Solution

I'll check fuses tomorrow, it's raining right now..... But unlike the symptoms in the above thread, my door locks, etc. are working.

I wish I could have more confidence in the new key either being good or bad, hate to gamble over $800 if it's not the root cause.

Jim
__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-01-2016, 08:14 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
BMW experience....

Another datum point, we also have a 99 BMW Z3.

Last year I had similar problem with that car. The rolling codes got out of synch and the car refused to start. The final fix was to send the ECU to a company that spoofed the ECU into seeing the OK-Dokey from the key/transponder/DAS making the key RFID chip irrelevant.

So far, I have not found a company that can do this for a MB.

Jim
__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-01-2016, 08:29 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,061
I can't help but wonder if replacing these computerized lock systems with standard old fashioned key locks wouldn't be a benefit. With more complexity comes more headaches, K.I.S.S. Back in 1995, Mercedes Benz started adding computers to their cars. Prior to that, most of the cars didn't have much in the way of computers. Today's Mercedes are LOADED with computers, they even talk about it in their advertising, over 70 computers!!!

Last edited by HuskyMan; 09-02-2016 at 09:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-02-2016, 04:09 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,515
If you dig around on e bay, there are chip readers that will make a key from the DAS box memory. However the DAS box must match the ECU.

Someone on e bay was also offering a service to unlock the ECU to allow it to be paired to another DAS box. ( After 40 or so starts the ECU locks out the ability to pair with another DAS box.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-03-2016, 05:21 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: El Dorado Hills, CA, USA
Posts: 418
Jim,

Check to see if your chrome ring(the coil) on the ignition is not pinched or open from the connector on the DAS box behind the cluster. You pinch, or cut that wire, and you are TOAST....

The signal is not picked-up

Martin
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-03-2016, 08:29 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAVA View Post
Jim,

Check to see if your chrome ring(the coil) on the ignition is not pinched or open from the connector on the DAS box behind the cluster. You pinch, or cut that wire, and you are TOAST....

The signal is not picked-up

Martin

As noted in the OP, I checked the transponder ring by unplugging it at the DAS module, and verifying continuity via an ohm check. The transponder ring showed 0 ohms resistance. That suggests it's good, right?

Jim
__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-11-2016, 06:30 PM
JimFreeh's Avatar
Benz addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Posts: 3,353
Well, it's gotten interesting.

We picked up a parts W140, one that we verified started and ran (not move, the tranny is bad).
Recall the good car is throwing a P1570 code, indicating a communication problem between the DAS and the ECM.
Swapped out the ECM, DAS and set up a loose transponder ring with the parts car RFID chip key next to it.

Still got the start error.

Now it gets interesting. We took the ECM, DAS and transponder coil and key from the "good" car and swapped them into the parts car. Guess what? The parts car started. Also worked fine with the new dealer key.
Seems like the next area to look at is wiring continuity.
The aftermarket clone SDS system I'm using has the wiring diagrams on it, but I have not been successful in finding them yet.
Think I need to sit in a chair, with an adult beverage and play with the system for a while......

Frustrated, but at least I don't need to drive the car tomorrow. Been driving the BMW Z3 in lieu of the S500, kinda getting used to it, it's a fun little go cart. Might be nice enough next week to consider putting the top down for the commute.



Jim
__________________
14 E250 BlueTEC black
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green
85 300TD 4 spd manual dark blue
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-11-2016, 08:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,515
Since the remote locks don't work, I'm wondering if that module is pulling the CAN bus down. As our guy said in post 2 start unplugging the CAN wire on anything you can find.

When you use the metal key to lock / unlock the door, do the other doors automatically lock / unlock? ( I'd try this with the trunk and windows down in case something bad happens and locks you out. )

Given the trans computer on these cars tends to get wet with trans fluid from a bad transmission plug bushing, I'd have a look there. It might not be the actual source of the problem but it is good PM regardless.

That SDS system might not have wiring diagrams.

I've seen 2 CAN bus style on Mercedes so far. 1: Daisy chain, with an end of line resistor at the modules at each end. 2: Star, where all CAN wires connect to a common point, I'm not sure if each module uses an end of line resistor.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-12-2016, 09:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milford, DE
Posts: 1,466
I think my cousin indicated in post #1 that the remote lock still works, and has always worked, with the original key. He indicated the replacement key from the dealer didn't work which might be caused by the new key not being synched to the car?

Since we can swap the DAS, engine ECM and transponder ring from the original car to the parts car and get them to work it seems like the problem would have to be a wiring, connector or power issue in the original car.

Does the DAS unit coordinate/originate the remote lock/unlock activity?
__________________
98 Dodge-Cummins pickup (123k)
99 CLK320 (352K)
08 SL550 (113K)
13 GLK250 (86K)
14 E250 (61k)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-12-2016, 08:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,515
DAS might be a stand alone unit in those years. I _think_ only the ML has the DAS / locks linked.

Whenever the ATA (anti theft alarm) started to stay armed even when the key / remote was used on my SL, the remote locks became erratic and would no longer work / resync. I wonder if the anti theft system can shut the engine down if it thinks there is a break in even if a valid key is used. Might be worth unplugging the ATA and RCL.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page