"Every car has problems" Not to flame that statement too much but, what exactly is that based on? Sounds like an opinion to me. I agree that the type of problem is important. Notice I have made four dealer visits for engine mechanicals and one for poor body fit. Is there any excuse for sending a $130k new car to market with ill fitting body parts? What about the mechanical ailments on a brand new top of the line Mercedes? You seem to classify this as "to be expected". That IMO is absolutely WRONG. Not holding MB to a higher standard is likely what caused this mess to begin with, they got lazy. The JDP surveys are certainly flawed but, when a marque like MB falls as it has in these ratings I think it definately demonstrates that there are major problems. If MB fell from second or third to even sixth or seventh I would blow it off. Fact is they now reside on the bottom. There IS a reason. It is not flawed surveys, it is a quality control problem at MB.

Both of my G-Wagens were/are impressively tough and reliable. They were hand built in a dedicated plant with pride and it shows. I have to wonder where the pride has gone from this once proud marque. Maybe my 600 was built the Monday after Oktoberfest. Somebody HAD to be wasted when they built this one.:eek:

One of my colleagues has two camry's, both 1987, both with over 250K miles, no problems whatsoever. His repair bills (combined for the two cars) is much less than that for my 190E (85, 133K). And this is not an isolated experience. There are TONS of such examples.

the reality is, the German manufacturers use "product control" for quality, while the Japanese believe in "process control". The Germans make the cars, and then test each one for problems, then correct the ones that have problems. The Japs identify WHY that problem occured in the first place, and correct the manufacturing process so that it never happens again. This way, over the years, they produce nearly flawless cars. Of course, my explanation is very simplistic, but I think you get the idea. There is a basic difference in philosophy here.

Mercedes has made excellent cars for over 100 years. They have a rock solid (well, not anymore!) brand name. Lexus and Acura have existed for about 15 years only. It takes decades to build up a luxury brand name, at least 30 years. Give them another decade, and then see. Already, Lexus is pretty close to BMW and Mercedes in brand appeal. Acura is close behind. Some people on this forum may not agree, but ask those who own these cars, MOST of them are totally satisfied.

The reality is, unless manufacturers bring in the Japanese efficiencies, there's no way they can sell a luxury car for 30K. If they do, they have to be cutting corners. The Japs are far more efficient. I don't think Mercedes has the ability to manufacture quality products for less than 50K - hence the junk C and M class vehicles. That they are having problems even in the E and S class, is a little harder to explain, and totally shocking. Their CEo (Jurgen whatever), has been the CEO since 1995, and its no coincidence, that's when their slide really began. And the acquisition of Chrysler has not helped matters. Their basic philosophy has changed - Mercedes is no more an exclusive luxury car manufacturers, its a mass marketer, and they really cannot compete in that department with the Japs.

Maybe it's a lifecycle thing. MB has reached the point that succeding models are not or are only marginally more satisfying that the previous models. If you follow the S-class from the W111/2, you can see that there were measurable improvements from model to model (at least in terms of what's important to me). The curve flattened from the W126 to the W140 in terms of reliability and either flattened altogether or pointed down from the W140 to the W220.

As for Lexus, I think part of their success was handed to them by MB.

I wouldn't call the C-class junk, but it's not the value the 240D continues to represent. The 240D is not a scaled down 450SEL, rather it goes off on a tangent of providing value in simplicity and bulletproof reliability. How does MB figure that those are not qualities American buyers would pay a premium for today? Everywhere else in the world MB offers value models. Why not here? The thousands of 240D owners won't find anything of interest in an MB showroom today.

Should this thread be moved to the open forum?

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL

The Chairman of Mercedes - Benz (World) admitted publicly during a Press Conference in Germany some weeks ago that currently the build quality of their cars has dropped.He promised to address it & ensure that all models in future would regain the stature of former production cars.

Tigerfox

Build quality is only part of the problem, they need to get with their suppliers and significantly improve the reliability of their components as well as "listen" to their long term customers before they lose them. I read recently that MB's warranty claims were too high, I hope they choose the right place to solve the problem and it's not by squeezing the buyer, it's by improving the product and the components before it gets to the consumer. I for one am getting close to refusing to give them my hard earned dollars for a product that I'm losing faith in when it gets past the warranty. Quite frankly, when I have to go on a long trip I hesitate to take my MB with over 100K Kms. and tend to take the Honda with similar mileage. I am very sad to reach that state. Just to give an example, in the last 4 weeks the belt tensioner went on my C36 just before I was taking it on a 1000Km. trip. I left the car behind and took the wife's Honda. It took a week to get the part and fix it. Before I headed back my son called as he had borrowed the car for the evening, the check engine light came on and now the Mass airflow sensor is gone. It was fixed within a day but what a pain! Thank goodness for the wife's Honda. The Honda has 105K Kms. and the C36 62K Kms. The Honda is not anything like the MB on the highway but MB could learn something from the Honda. JT

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I for one am getting close to refusing to give them my hard earned dollars for a product that I'm losing faith in when it gets past the warranty........ I am very sad to reach that state.
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EXACTLY my state/feeling/emotion/point.

I agree, it is hard to spend my money with MB or BMW anymore. My problem is that we have grown accustomed to the big highway bruisers. Audi just doesn't have the feel or style of either of the others, they are close but not close enough to earn my dollars. Lexus is not even close in feel and they actually come up short on features, as well as not offering a V12. Domestics, yeah right. The E class appeals to me but my wife is spoiled by the LWB cars. For now I will tough it out with the S600. I am glad my wife wanted to keep the BMW or I would likely be giving up my G:eek: and we can't have that.

I hope the chairman is sincere about fixing this problem. The cars still offer engineering no one else can touch, along with the best driving experience on the planet. I do hope that the quality comes up to the legends of the past. Sure would be nice if they all held out like a 240D;)

I'm glad I'm not alone in my frustration and sadness. I don't expect perfection,I just expect value coupled with modest inconvenience. JT

What I mean by every car has problems, is just that, nothing is perfect. In my opinion, no car can be 100% problem free. Now that doesn't mean that its acceptable, but in my opinion, you can't expect that just because something is more expensive that it has to be better.

A Ferrari is expensive, but are they considered reliable? how about many other cars? Take a Rolls Royce, considered top of the line in luxury, but in no means are they the most reliable cars. a Honda has less problems thana rolls royce, but people still buy it because it is what it is, a Rolls Royce, the standard of what luxury is all about.

I do understand those of you who have newer mercedes and have had problems galore, hell I am witness firsthand to problems with a benz, as a friends dad had an s600 that he had to invoke lemon law on. He then switched to BMW, and is now back on mercedes.

Even the new BMW 7 series are having many problems, from throttle body problems to other issues. Again unacceptable for a car that costs a lot.

I also tend to find that mercedes owners above any others, are more nit picky about little things vs most typical owners of other brands.

This nit pickyness is a good thing, because it is about owners making sure that everything is working as it should be. That shows a serious amount of responsibility and not a serious amount of neglect that most car owners have with their cars.

I commend MB owners for being so thorough.

Now if only these reports could be as nit picky and as organized as most of us mercedes owners, we may get much more real results rather than generalized ones.

Alon

Ashman, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but when an expensive product cosistantly shows a consumer that it has problems (remember I'm basing this on my 5 recent purchases) the consumer has to give his head a shake and re-evaluate priorities. The cost of ownership is not cheap, and the inconvenience of not having the car available or not being able to rely on it eventually becomes an issue and choices must be made. I'm not convinced that MB will seriously address the issue until it gets acute. I would be most interested to find out if Europe is a different marketplace and if they are more accepting of the inconvenience.

As a mercedes owner, I have had to GIVE UP my nitpickiness long time ago. Can't afford to be nitpicky anymore - the damn car has SO MANY problems! I have learnt to ignore many things. Its not a Honda or a Toyota where you can go after every single problem, since there will be so few! After all, its a mercedes.

Pardon my sarcasm, but its time to face the reality and stop deluding ourselves. Lets call a spade a spade. The best car of the last 100 years is very unlikely to be anywhere near the best the next 20. Nobody is questioning the past of Mercedes, its the future which is seriously in doubt. Its already turning into a rebadged CHrysler!

Someone already pointed out the key issue that MB fell from the top of the survey. The survey cannot be so badly flawed that MB falls from first to last if everyone else is pretty much in the same place. MB had to have a hand in that.

No one expects a Ferrari or Rolls Royce to be reliable. Certainly not anyone who's ever owned one. But just about everyone who owned an MB made up to 10 years ago can attest to the marque's reliability. Why should those folks expect or be expected to make more trips to the service department? You can argue that the MB badge on some of these later examples is false advertising. Before the Starmark program, few needed a Starmark program. It's sad to see folks have to pay for something MB used to give for free. Maybe next we'll see optional life insurance in place of sturctural integrity.

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL

I have gotten in on this thread late and I offer my apology to others for not reading everything in the thread.

Keith Lucy,

I find your comments a bit confusing. You bantered with David C. Klasse regarding the C Class and attacked the car based on it's lack of long life. There are indeed reasons to consider the car "crap" as you put it. If you prefer large, expensive cars, the C Class may indeed seem like "crap" to you. But, if you are saying the C Class is "crap" based on lack of long life, that dog won't hunt.

The C Class cars, even the worst of them, probably are capable, on average, of having a longer life than your big bodied car regardless of whether the owner takes extremely good care of the car or not.

The big bodied cars, specifically the V8's (you are aware that your car has a V8 aren't you, that's one with a row of four spark plugs on each side) are typically more complex and often with expensive to repair sub-systems such as automatic level control and such. They don't sell as many of these type cars, thus they don't have the power in numbers necessary to really perfect and reduce the cost of such sub systems. Additionally because of the lower production numbers they don't have as many units for which they can ammortize such development costs.

The V8's are most definitely prone to timing chain related failures that are EXPENSIVE to take care of.

Don't get me wrong, I like the big bodied cars even though I have never owned one. Mike Tangas is a perfect example of a big bodied Benz lover. He is fully aware of the additional problems that he must contend with and he contends with them. But, he is fully aware of this going in. He also appreciates the solidity and robustness of these cars more than the fact that he looks cool driving it (and believe me, I've seen his big bodied car and it does look cool!)

You, on the other hand, I expect have not driven a big bodied Benz long enough to know what you are faced with. Additionally I expect that you have NEVER driven a C Class.

David C. Klasse is a regular long time, interesting poster. I think it was rude of you to make such a statement. And I think he showed much more "Klasse" and restraint than myself in responding to you.

Now after you have driven YOUR car 150,000 miles, I would ask you to report back to David with your expenses and experience with your expensive car and compare longevity with him. This is regardless of who turns the wrenches on your car. You do know what a wrench is don't you? Have your fingernails ever been dirty?

I'm sorry to get carried away here, but I find your demeanor quite annoying, just as many here probably find my demeanor to be annoying. An apology to David would go very far toward your redemption.

Have a great day,

Good news! They figured out my drivability problem on the S600:D First they tried the coil and plugs, then a shot in the dark with fuel injectors. Finally after the tech gave it some thought they ruled out the injectors. This is where the utter complexity of the car contributed to the difficulty of the diagnoses. The new V12 runs on one bank of 6 cylinders under light load. Part of this system is a valve in the exhaust that closes to keep the cats warm and keep the exhaust note normal among other things I am sure. It was stuck closed due to a broken clamp. My big burly V12 was exhausting through a straw choking itself off.

Back to the JDP deal. I went to their site and ran a comparison. I selected 10 cars, S,E,C,and M class Benzes along with the Lexus, Acura, a Caddilac, a Chysler, a BMW and something else. Then they allow tou to choose what features are important to you and rate the catagories for importance. The results were generally pretty good for MB. Naturally the Lexus was on top each time but, it was generally followed by either the E or S class in second place. The Benz cars always did the best when performance and style were high priorities. I think this illustrates Ashmanns point. When you compare somewhat like models the MB products fair very well. I would have to agree that comparing an S500 to an Accord isn't a fair comparison considering the level of gadgets on a top of the line model. When the top is compared with a like competitor MB is in the game. It would be my desire to see them at the TOP of the game like they once were.

Sorry if I came off as annoying.

To answer a few of your questions -

Yes, I do know what a V8 is, Yes, I do know what a wrench is and, Yes, my finger nails have been dirty.

I understand that the big bodied cars are typically more complex than the small ones for the reasons you sighted, and the costs to repair these items may add up. But if a car is designed for reliability, and not to fit a price point, then the probability of incurring these repairs can be lower, if the engineers do their job. I am an engineer, and know that through re-use, you can achieve the "numbers necessary to really perfect and reduce the cost". The W126 body style spanned 13 model years (1979-1991). While the body sizes and engines may have been different, there is quite a bit of re-use if many of the subsystems. The simplicity of many of these systems, and there modularity lead directly to lower repair costs. I purposely bought the last model year in order to maximize the likelyhood of a defect free car. So far, so good.

For the record, I have driven a "C" class. I test drove a 200 C280 and was so unimpressed, I went for the 1991 560SEL. I have also driven a 2001 E430 (brothers car). It is a very nice car, that he bought on my recommendation, but sorry, I don't have $50,000 to spend on a car.

If two cars rolled off the assembly line today, one was a 1991 W126, and the other was a 2002 W202/W203, which one would rate higher on the JD power survey?

Glad to hear that they are on the way to solving your car's problems.

As to the recent post by Larry Bible, I agree. David's been a significant contributor to our little world here, and has shown a maturity and enthusiasm beyond his years.

As to the C-Class, I don't understand beating it up. The W202 version was the model ranked as the most reliable and trouble free of the Mercedes line-up during it's tenure. Even outfits like Consumer Reports rated it very high.

Having owned mine for only five years, I can't comment on the "decade" plus potential, but so far it's a truly "perfect" car. At 122,000 kilometers (~76,000 miles) it's been trouble free and wonderfully reliable.

Mercedes can't sell a 240D today. Not a chance. It would be expensive and other than a core group of MB nuts, wouldn't sell worth a darn. No airbags? No ABS? No traction control? Lousy stereo? Tepid AC? No passing power?

Mercedes faces much stiffer competition than ever before. Automotive reliability has increased dramatically in the last 15 years, and even a Lexus LS430 isn't really any more reliable (maybe less?) than a Toyota Corolla. So how to differentiate? Features? Seems to be the way companies are going right now.

Mercedes would be laughed at if they re-introduced the W126. 238hp from 5.6L? Four speed automatic? No multi-zone ACC? Two airbags? And so on...

While the W126 560SEL suits YOU better, it's a matter of taste. I have seat time in a W126 LWB, and find it a VERY nice car to drive, but it's not my cup of tea. The car is plain too big and ponderous for me. The fuel economy/performance ratio is terrible, especially compared to newer designs. It's not for everyone.

It would be impossible to determine which, a 1991 SEL or 2000 C-Class that would perform tops in JD Power. Your question sounds rhetorical, assuming the W126 would win. Why? I know many C-Class owners, some with astronomical mileage, that have been more than happy with their cars.

And btw, if you're wondering how your original comment comes across, it makes it sound as if anyone that chooses a C-Class is somehow dumb.

When I first heard that this system was in use in the S600 I thought for sure that it wouldn't be very reliable. It sounds great on paper but it reminds me of the Cadillac V-8-4, where it shut down the cylinders as needed.

There's been some discussion about the C-class here. I had a chance to drive a brnad new C240 for 3 days as a loaner recently. Before that, I twice got a C230 Compressor (I think it was 99) as a loaner, with about 22K miles. The C230 compressor (99) felt much more solid, engine was obviously better, ergonomics inside were better, overall, it was a better car. I just didn't like the C240 - the interior is not that nice, some controls are awkwardly placed, engine is underpowerd, etc. I have also recently driven the Audi A4, A6, and the BMW 3-series. All of them (of course, A6 is in a different class) are much nicer than the C, even the A4. 2 of my friends drove the C, then bought the Audi A4. Two others bought the BMW 3-series, ditched the C. One bought a lexus ES300.

What is most revealing in a market place is the decisions consumers make, not what they say. Of course, not all customers are rational, but as a group, there is fair amount of rationality - not everyone is a fool, only few, maybe. So if many people are preferring the A4 and 3-series to the C, and the lexus, that says something about the product (and its pricing too). And this is just within the German brands. There are many others who are not so concerned about the brand, who don't even consider the mercedes C class. Mind you, my comments are restricted to the C class (and the M), not the E or the S. The E and the S are in a different category and price range, but the C - its not doing Mercedes proud. Its nowhere near the most desirable car in the 30-35K range.

I am not implying that people who buy the C are less informed or anything like that. Its just that fewer and fewer people are buying the C. The less brand conscious customers are going elsewhere. THose who REALLY want to own a mercedes are still flocking to the C. But brand values change, and nobody here would disagree what direction the Mercedes brand is headed. Maybe we'll soon see the E-class taxi cabs here as well, as they are all over Europe!

Agupta...
I know what you mean, there are certain (very small, and when it really boils down - irrelevant) features that Mercedes models have been "behind." The 1995 E-class still had a mechanical rolling odometer... when most cars were already switching over to digital. But, really, WHO CARES?
Just one example. I know what you mean... it's kind of irritating and an inconvenience... how often are you going to be driving from state to state, USING the NAV system, and actually have to switch the CD... not often. But you MIGHT, there's that SLIM, once (or twice...) in a lifetime momentary 'interruption.'

OVER IT! ;)

Heck, Honda Accord offers a voice activated DVD based navigation system now. Acura has had a touch screen DVD based navigation system for years. Why does mercedes still have a CD-ROM based toggle switch driven navigation system? You need about 10 CDs to cover the US alone, and you may need to change CD's if you go from one state to another. No such hassle in the Accord or the Acuras. Why is mercedes behind these guys? Why can't it be in the forefront of technology? And navigation systems are not useless devices. Like antilock brakes, airbags (and wipers some 50 years ago - yes, wipers were optional accessories in the first half of this century!!!!), etc, navigation systems are going to be standard accessories in most cars in 10 years. Then why is Mercedes behind others???????????

Not sure about elsewhere, but in Canada, the W203 C-Class is smashing sales records. For C240 Classic cars with popular equipment, it can be months to wait for one.

The W202 C-Class started to fade a bit during it's tenure, but a 1998 facelift caused a sales jump. Only when the W203 announcement came did things drop off, in expectation of the newer model.

BMW is on a roll, but MB is right there with them. Audi is an also ran in this race. The A4 is a success, but not the steamroller in the market it could be. Resale values still suck, which scares some off. Lexus has done well with the ES300, but it's a bit of a horse of a different colour. The IS300 is their BMW/MB fighter, and it's quality has been pretty spotty, indeed the lowest of all Lexus products.

Watch the new Inifiniti G35. RWD, big power, good quality, and LOW price. Could be a BMW/MB sales stealer.

The C-Class W203 has done well in magazine comparision tests, but drops back when price is factored in. The most prevalent comment is "the car to buy for long term ownership." They also praise the car for it's high quality and stylish looks. It's just a bit overpriced. (Which I feel the C320 is in a big way...)

My Aunt has a 2001 C240, and she is NOT a person to buy a used car from. She does NOT look after her cars, but the C240 has held up well, with not a single warranty repair in two years.

If MB Canada brings a W203 diesel in, our E300 is GONE...

Hello Everyone... its been a while since I've posted....
Not to get too far off topic, but in response to the gentleman who brought up the valid point of Toyota's 3 million car wide oil sludging problem:

A car (late model toyota camry) came into the shop 2 months ago, for a rear seal to be replaced. I decided that I was better equiped to pull the engine than to drop the transaxle because I lacked a transmission cradle. While I had the engine out,I noticed that the oil pan gasket also looked suspicious, and pulled the pan off... Wow was I surprised! The incredible amounts of sludge found in this engine was unbelievable... on the counterbalance assembly, the crank shaft and rods, I pulled the valve cover and saw ALL of the holes that allowed oil to drain back out of the head were clogged, the valve train was CAKED in carbonized oil, and the leaks that occured around the entire engine were caused by the positive crankcase ventillation system being completely plugged, causing excess pressure in the crank case... what a friggin mess on a 4 year old car... ( with good service records!)
To prove it, I have a 36 exposure roll of pictures that I took, both out of amazement, and also to be able to show the customer and future customers... Needless to say, he spend a bit of extra cash at the shop having the carbon and sludge removed.

MB has its problems, I believe most stem from complexity... and the cost of dealer service. I still think they are beautiful cars, and would purchase a used one, mainly because I can get a number of parts at this site, that are not stocked by my wholesaler. Really, this site makes it alot easier for all of us to own MB's and I'm thankful that I could refer to it on a number of occasions.
BTW, The Snapon man just showed me the cartridge and scanner ends/pigtails that can be used on latemodel MBs... Looks like I wont have to rely on generic OBD II... I figure I'll pick it up in a few weeks.
Glad to be back!
Jason McNeese

BTW... I managed to pass ASE A1 (Engine Assembly), A6(Electronics Diagnosis), and A8 (Engine Performance) last may... hopefully I'll find an opening at a dealer soon, this independant thing gets alittle old (lack of dealer/factory info while troubleshooting drivability problems)

I think there are a few points that need to be made here...the MB cars are actually less expensive than there were 10 years ago and they have more features...the savings had to come from somewhere!!...even figuring the large discounts that some cars sold for in the 80-90's...todays MB's are less expensive...the new 210 was less expensive than the car it replaced and had more features....do I think the new S-class took a dip in qaulity of interior materials...sure I do...but the price is on par with my car(sticker) that is 10 years older....I think MB had to face reality...were people willing to pay the price?...especially in the face of a new stiff competitor called Lexus....if you factor the money value for time..the new S-class would have been over 100K!!!.....is there a mass market for a car like that?....a company has to make money to stay viable...most of the people on this site own vehicles from the 80's....so I would gather than MB would not be counting on this group(other than parts,maybe..because it seems that almost no one here takes their car to the dealer for service)...so to sell NEW cars they had to make a decision....do I think the NEW MB's are worth the money...absolutely

my .002

Warren
1992 300SD 144K
Columbus Ohio

agupta,

I am amazed and confused about your statement indicating that the C240 is down on power and inferior to the previous generation car. I am curious if you were driving an automatic or a stick.

My C240, 6 speed is not real fast, but it FEELS much faster than it is. A friend of mine who drives a Corvette has ridden with me several times going to lunch. He also has ridden in MY Corvette going to lunch. Every time he has ridden in my C240,(a six speed) he asks if it is as fast as my Corvette. There is no way, not even in the same ballpark, but the C FEELS faster than it really is.

The engine is as smooth as an electric motor all the way to the redline. If you really want power, you get it above 3,000 RPM.

As for the solidity, I am also amazed. Comparing a 202 to 203 is absolutely an apples to oranges comparison IMHO.

Also, in the summer of 2000 just before buying my C class that fall, I drove a sport suspensioned A4 several thousand kilometers on the German Autobahn and into Switzerland. It was a decent handling car, but topped out at about 215 or 220 km/hour. But, these are front wheel drive cars with all the quirks that come with front wheel drive. Again, this is comparing oranges to apples.

A coworker who lives in Milan, goes through an A4 every several years. He loves them and thinks they're really reliable, but it seems that they are always in the shop. He drove me from Milan to Switzerland last October in his last A4 and had his new one on order because he was having trouble with the one he was driving. It had electrical problems and was burning oil. It would not start without trying it a dozen times or so. At that point it had 150,000 km! I've never had a Benz, any Benz that was even broken in well at 150,000 km.

As far as comments about brands go, and people buying a C so it is an MB may be true for some, but I buy a Benz because they are solid and last a long time. I drive 60,000 miles per year so my cars MUST last a long time.

I really don't know what is driving your evaluation, but if you will pardon me, it doesn't sound objective to me.

Have a great day,

I don't know if I have read all the posts in this thread, I kept hoping it would go away.

This is not a technical discussion. it is a beauty contest. Just like in ice skating I prefer speed skating to figure skating. I have no use for criteria based upon judgement rather than performance. J.D.Powers and all the other people that make statistics are free to get whatever results suit them. The way the question is asked changes the answer almost every time. The democrats poll and get 75% for 25% against, the Republicans get just the opposite. Its all BS.

If you took a poll of technicians you would get entirely different results. They would probably all agree that people that buy expensive cars are more critical. Many would probably agree that acceptance of new players like Lexus probably is a lot "sour grapes". But the most important thing they would tell you is that the new technology is scary and it doesn't matter what car you buy, they all have some of it. To condemn a car because of reoccuring problems with cellular phones and navigation systems makes my laugh. When they put radar in the back with the patriot missiles they probably will do a better job than the milliary, its probably easier technology.

Consumer desires have brought the car we have today. Consumers will have to learn to reboot the thing just like we all accepted that with our PC technology.

Some interesting points made here...Larry I need to show you the service records on my car...lol...by 150KM(93K) my car had a stck of repair tickets probably 3 inches thick and from that times to now has had about 20K and another 3 inches of reciepts from the dealer...needless to say...the whole service staff at Crown MB knows my by name...lol

but part of the pleasure in driving a benz is that it IS a benz...a few years ago I traded my 1992 300D for an Acura Legend...I hated the car honestly...kept it a year and sold it...never had any problems...but I did n't like the way it drove,doors closed...and too much over priced ACCORD feel to it...it was a limited edition 6 speed manual trans and I had no problem selling it...BUT I never really liked it...this car I own now has been without question the biggest pain in the A%& I have ever driven...but with the door closers,woodwork,incredible ride..etc..I smile everyday when I drive it...so I ask myself..if it makes me happy what is that worth?


Warren
1992 300SD 144K
Columbus Ohio

turnne1,

Maybe I've just been lucky. As long as my luck holds out, however, I will continue with MB products.

Steve,

Great post!

Have a great day,

I think you have been lucky Larry...

as I think the more complicated features in the S-class cars..one as even as old as mine are costly to repair...and my car is not as isolated case....the regional MB service rep told me that he still gets manly complaints on the 140 cars..mostly he said becuase of the expense to repair...but I have heard the new 220 is a bear also...the cooling fans in the seats(which I hear makes sweating legs on leather a thing of the past) are $1000/each seat to repair...and yes I have seen these being fixed at the dealer under warranty...but it stands to reason...the more complicated something in the more statistically it will have problems...so does that mean you give up all the creature comforts...I for one don't think so.

as for the JD power survey....all I can say is that I think the japanese luxury cars..for example LS 400 can blow the doors off a 140 in terms or reliability...BUT i for one have never liked the way those cars drove..I have tried twice to buy one...and I just don't like them...as practical as they seem to be


Warren
1992 300SD 144K
Columbus Ohio

Whatever. As I say with near a million miles of "good luck," I'll keep playing these lottery numbers until they don't work any more.

Have a great day,

going down hill
 

My dad bought a C320 last year. They drive very little but he had his share of problems. The Dealers in LA were not very forth coming or helpful.

The car had incorrect motor mounts installed at the factory and they collapsed. The engine went into safe mode and reduced power. The dealer never told my dad what happened, just that they replaced the mounts. I have a buddy who is a MB shop manager here in Dallas and he told me the real story. The key fobs also malfunctioned and would not hold the memory settings. The battery died 2 times. The seat bottoms wrinkled up (only 4K on the odo). The engine skipped. The tranny had a faint whine. The lid for the first aid kit was warped. The cover in front of the shift lever was not aligned properly (dealer never could / did fix those last two). The brake disks already had a substantial ridge on them (again, less than 4k)

My dad ended up getting MB to buy the car back at 4k and 1 year old for full price but only after a considerable bit of fighting. He has a friend in MB in Germany who forced the issue. Now I will grant that my dad is not the easiest customer but he has been in the car repair business for 50 years and knows what something should or should not do and for $47k that C320 was a piece of crap. When we ended up having MB buy it back the regional rep for MB told my dad not to ever by another MB. I could not believe my ears. My dad ended up going to another dealer out side that reps region and bought an E320 Special Edition (so far he is very satisfied).

I have a 1987 190 16V that I have placed close to $10k in. My folks who had it prior to me hardly drove it and as a consequence did not have to do much maintenance to it. I drive quite a bit now and stuff started failing left and right. New trans, shocks front and rear, condenser, control arm, drag link, tie rods, cruise amp/actuator, exhaust … Granted had the car been driven these expenses would have been spread over several years instead of a year and a half but still, that is not what I expect from MB.

I had a 1977 240D that had 125k that just ran and ran. I yearn for the good old days.

Many of us "yearn for the good old days" but with the advent of leasing and the consumer pressure for all these gadgets in cars there are fairly few customers with the foresight to pay for the great machine a 240D was/is because they are intending to keep it for twenty five years.

Leasing takes the cost of fixing stuff out of the equation. And eliminates the perspective of ownership after the warranty period. So people lease cars loaded with junk, and if you don't offer a car with all the gadgets you won't sell any cars to leasing companies. Or most of the other customers out there either as the gadgets have become the basic allure of the car, not the underlying machine. As I noted earlier, the basic underlying machine from all sources has improved drastically, and MB would be hard pressed to bring something as superior as the 240D was in its day to the market today. So they are forced to add mechanically complex cupholders and other plain junk to the cars today just to stay abreast of Toyota and Honda and the likes.

While we yearn for the good old days, MB doubts we would actually buy a $30,000 C class with no junk in it, so they don't make it available. I am not sure they are not correct on this one. It is easy to yearn, but I think relatively few of us would buy a car with the MB star on it and accept it with no electric seats, electric windows, automatic multi-zone climate control system, and bizzare cupholders anymore. Yet it is this stuff that fails over the long haul, or even the short haul as we have all experienced and complain about.

Just my next $0.02 installment. Jim

MB is doing something wrong if we're arguing amongst ourselves about the quality of the recent crop of MB products.

JD Power aside, I think there is more forum following for the idea that quality is down than anyone can dismiss as a statistical anomaly. Way more then there would have been 15 years ago.

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL

Thats an interesting statement....??.....I thought as a whole the relaibility of autos was better than it was 15 years ago?


Warren
1992 300SD 144K
Columbus Ohio

I agree with turnnel on this one. I remember when the 123 came out, people said that it was just junk compared to their earlier MB's. My wife had a 250 at the time and everyone said it was better than a new one, MB was just going down the tube. I still hear that with each new car introduced even though they seem to me to get better.

The new V6 is an absolute engineering and production masterpiece. The cars are stronger for their weight than they used to be due to the use of the latest technology.

The technology that is downplayed in this thread is the gadgetry. Except for there being a recall on the IR/RF key for my C Class I have had no problem at all with any of this gadgetry. And they stood good for that and it was really no trouble at all for me. They handled it well.

There are always horror stories like the one told above about his Dad's C320. I fully expect that all brands have them regardless of what country they are designed and built in.

I would have no problem buying a new C Class without the gadgetry, you know, the way they are designed for their home market. In Germany, crank up windows and manual seats are common. That much less to go wrong. But, as my car stands now, there will be no complaints until the gadgetry gives trouble. I have absolutely no reason to believe that it will give trouble.

Then I stand corrected.

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL

Tried to post this a few days ago but it got "lost".

Let's remember what these W140's were designed to do. 100MPH reliably for 200K miles. Yes, I have my share of repair tickets like everyone else, but I knew that when I purchased the car. When I rate reliability, I want it reliably to perform at speed.
I have great feel, control and comfort for 4 adults at long drives up and down I5. SAcramento to LA in less than 5 hours. I can't fly in that time counting all the airport hassles.

Since I bought the car, I haven't flown with the family to LA. We make the drive. There are thing faster than this beast, but nothing gets there faster in more comfort and safety. Even my wife will take it up to speed(100MPH) on this drive because it just seems that is it's "natural" cruising speed.

Wep, my window failed to go up in the back the other day, 150 bucks later it was working. Worth every penny to have this baby in the garage.

Oh yea, there isn't another "production" car on the road I'd want to own. I "love" this car.

I will admit however, you have to be able to afford it.

Right on! Ken

I agree with that one....you have to put a price on how much it gives you enjoyment everyday....has my car been a pain...absolutely...but like you Ken I enjoy it every day...I have owned a 126 and a 124 prior,each with its own attrubutes...but I think the 140(and 129) are definitely pinnacle MBs


Warren
1992 300SD 144K
Columbus Ohio