Jd Power !! News Flash
 

Terrible news for Mercedes!!! For the first time since JD Power started keeping records, Mercedes Benz has fallen BELOW industry standards for new car QUALITY!! This is the same level as KIA & Daewoo!

Come on MB get back to basics!!

Each year, each survey, it seems to get worse. But sales keep going up. Unfortunately, I don't expect any change until sales slide (if then). It is really a shame that M/B has become synonymous with expensive junk.

far be it for me to defend mercedes, but, the nature of the survey is somewhat specious and arbitrary. someone buying a mercedes may have high expectations. higher than purchasers of more moderately priced items. someting that would not concern a kia buyer may bother a mercedes owner. and ergo the trip to the dealer. enough of my defense. my heart is not in this defense.

I own a W140 ('95 S500). From what I have read, and from what many knowledgeable Mercedes Benz enthusiasts tell me, this is one of the last quality products MB has put out. Having said that, I have had more than my share of problems with the car. However, it pales in comparison to my friend and his one year old S500. He says he will never buy another Mercedes. Hopefully, MB is working to get back on track. If not, their short term bubble of higher volume than ever sales, will no doubt burst.

Yeah, I think it's embarrassing for Mercedes and I will not try and defend them.

There is no excuse for not getting quality right in the first 90 days of ownership.

I know that the argument in defense of Mercedes is that these cars have many electronic goodies, and that expectations are inappropriately high.

Well, that argument doesn't work for me as Lexus and Cadillac rank very high in this survey, and they have as many or more crazy electronic content as Mercedes.

The last time I was at the dealer, there were two different customers of new-ish s-classes that were in for the same problem the third or fourth time, and both owners were furious. One of them said they'd never own a Mercedes again, and the other would still consider it, but didn't think he could afford it after the warranty expired.

I agree, if JD changed its formula recently then maybe you could use that as an excuse. But JD has not changed its formula for evaluating cars in a while and MB just keeps scoring lower and lower each year.

Okay so yeah your late 90's MB may be around long after your neighbours Nissan gives up the ghost, but its looks like maybe its going to be a long frustrating relationship.

I have a 15 year old W124 and I have never heard an interior squeak or rattle. Yeah that damn CIS may be a pain in the butt sometimes, but hey it 15 years old!! So the head gaskette leaked after 13 years, so what. I heard someone in another forum complain that his C280 head leaked and that thing was only 5 years old:eek: What the heck is that about?

MB quality has been damn sliding for that last 5-7 years. Now that they are aligned with Chrysler, things will get even worse.

Mercedes-Benz will continue to flourish for some period of time simply because there are a ton of yuppies in this country walking around with "look at me" attitudes. They're buying a status symbol.

Unfortunately Lexus has long since knocked MB off the shelf when it comes to new car quality.

I have a last-year 126 car and love the "gee I wish I had one of those" looks I get from people driving by me in their over-priced-Honda-Civic-looking MB cars.

Well, isn't THAT the whole deal about buying a Merc?

If you fork over $60k for a car, you should expect nothing more than perfection, period!

On other hand, if someone buys a cheap $12k Daewoo or Huyndai, as the old saying goes, "you get what you pay for," and of course he/she will be able to forgive some minor faults.

That is the problem with actual Benzes, particularly with the current W210 E-class and S220 S-class. Cheap feel materials, poor workmanship, no real M-B soul. The new E-class is proving to revert a little this trend, and whopefully the future S-class will revert it some more.

A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995

Has anyone thought that a few years of quality diminishing is part of the plan?

If you make slightly poorER cars for a while and then eliminate several of the problems. You a) get lots of customers, not knowing of the current problems that buy into it and b) get a huge pump a few years later when the quality of Mercedes is drastically improved. MB gets to save money now, while they are growing massively, make more in parts a little down the line and then pump sales when the improvements come along. For them, the stock holders, the parts manufacturers, and our friends, the techs, it is win-win-win-win all the way to the bank. Such is the power of a very long term reputation that is NOT known by the masses as being on the thin side of excellent.

Just food for thought.

This said, even though my ML has a few minor problems it is still a darrrrrrrrrrned fine ride with just under 24K miles on it. I like it for road trips more than my E. And I like my E *a* *lot*

Happy Motoring!

have a friend who started working for a Lexus dealership when it was a brand new franchise. He relates that all of the dealers and employees were continuously pounded on the point of the JD Power's customer satisfaction surveys. That is, each dealership, every employee must do any and everything required to make sure they receive the highest ratings possible.

It is my understanding as well that Lexus and shortly there after Toyota allocated vehicles based on these surveys. In other words, if you want to get the highest amount of vehicles allocated per given market area, you'd better have the highest customer satisfaction survey results.

My friend was told that he dealerships gave coupons to the customers for free services, dinners, and merchandise if they would a) complete the survey b) answer with total satisfaction c) contact the dealership if for any reason they could not do a) or b).

Now I do also believe that both Toyota and Lexus make good cars, after all experience and word of mouth lasts way beyond new car ownership surveys. But both these makes have done an excellent job of positioning the expectation of quality in their buyers: "They just don't break .... they last forever .... highest quality ...." etc.

Since dealerships and auto manufacturers are not required to disclose "real" warrantable repairs with part summaries (unless an inquiry from the government for safety recalls) the JD Power surveys are really what are called "manageable perceptions".

Again, don't get me wrong, I think these are good cars with genuinely good "real life" owner satisfactions, but don't talk to the corporate people or the marketing purveyors, instead talk to the techs and shop managers. Ask them how the vehicles fair in the real world.

My 2 cents.

I heard they are on a budget now...
 

I have heard from different sources (here and car magazines) saying that newer MBs, W202 and over, were developed/produced with a more rigid budget than before. They said earlier MBs were developed with a more liberal budget and then given a price. This is why the late SL was said to be the last of the true MBs. Also that is why you see such a big difference in quality between the W124 and the next generation E ('96-'02). Anyhow, I still prefere an MB ;) over other cars in the market. Perhaps I am biased by my background (IE/Human Factors/Usability), but I strongly believe MBs are very well desiged cars, and contained many well thought features with a strong concern for the users. I just don't see this in most cars.

On a side note, my father works at a Rolls/Bentley dealer and says a lot of the new models have to be fixed right off the boat, and all sorts of stuff goes wrong. :confused:

"Other above-average five-year quality improvements include American Isuzu (39%), Mitsubishi Motor Sales (38%) and DaimlerChrysler (27%)." J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Initial Quality StudySM

I just don't know whether I even care about the JD Power survey. How a car behaves in the first 90 days just isn't important. I'm more concerned with how it's going to look, hang together, and drive when it's 9 years old. Heck, I don't plan to ever own a car that's only 90 days old - too expensive! While it would be better if there were no bugs in the first three months, that experience pales relative to the experience over the first, oh, seven or ten years. So far as I can tell, Mercedes is still a solid performer on these longer term timescales. The best? I don't know. So long as everything made by Lexus ranges from bland to offensively ugly, and I'm not near enough being dead to buy a Cadillac, guess I'm stuck with Benz...

BTW, I'm getting real sick of all this crap about the 210 being low quality. I own both an early 124 and an early 210 chassis car. I like the interior of the 210 *much* better. It has tremendously less plastic, more wood, more cloth, and more leather. The door panels on the 124 are 100% monotone plastic - no wood, no leather. The 210 has wood trim, cloth trim, and leather trim on the doors. The A, B, and C pillars on the 124 are plastic. The A, B, and C pillars on the 210 are covered with fabric. The headliner of the 124 is plastic. The headliner of the 210 is cloth. Wanna know which one has the richer looking interior - the 210, and it ain't even close. Anyone who says the 210 looks cheap doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

BTW, yes, I am grumpy today!

chill grumpy ;)
 

...the 210 might be more elegant... but the w124 pillars are all covered in more durable MB text type material, and the head liner is not plastic, its synthetic fiber which will most likely last longer than cloth. Our W203 has cloth on the pillars, and I am terrified to think if they ever get stained and hope they don't turn yellow with the sun :eek:

relax.....

We may be getting to the end of the validity of that last sentence at least for the S-class. Folks seem a lot more anxious about pulling the trigger on an early W140 than on a 10-year-older W126. Even with the considerable difference in purchase price, I think most folks are put off by the potential upkeep of the newer MBs. Closing pumps and headrests are one thing. Power steering and AC are quite another.

I don't say this because I have a W126, but because I'm ready to move up and a W140 seems like a crap shoot.

I should have said financial crap shoot. No doubt it'll have a more luxurious feel.

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL

It started in 1992
 

I was told, by a long time Mecedes-Benz fanatic, that 1991 was the last year that Mercedes-Benz simply built the best car it possibly could, and then put a price tag on it.

In 1992, they turned the process around. They started with the price tag that has a target market, and built whatever car they could while still making money.

Enter Chrysler, and the process becomes even more profit driven.

Do they still make a fantastic, top of the line, car? YES, as long as you steer clear of the mass market crap that they have been pushing lately.

Ever wonder what the "C" in "C" class stood for?

To me, it means CRAP.

Re: It started in 1992
 

Alright, and to me, it means CHAMP... because it's been nothing but. Do you own a C-class? Alright, then your opinion holds little worth, IMO.

Talk to me when it's 11 years old with 150,000 miles

Well then that's not long off.

It's already 8 years old (purchased 10/94) and has 130,000 miles... not to offend you, but you're statement is FAR from valid, let alone factual.

Quote:

My friend was told that he dealerships gave coupons to the customers for free services, dinners, and merchandise if they would a) complete the survey b) answer with total satisfaction c) contact the dealership if for any reason they could not do a) or b).

This sounds a bit like bribery to me. This is the reason that I have never put much stock in J.D Powers survey. Tainted results. Answer this question; If Lexus is so great how come my local dealer nearly doulbed the size of its service department?

Anyway if anyone has noticed MB seems to have problems with new models. Just as the chasiss is coming to the end of its production life they finally almost get it just right.

I think the 108,123, and 126 series were some of MBs best work.The 124 was a decent car for those who didn't want a big S class. I was saddened to see the day MB came out with the entry level models starting with the 201 chassis. Mercedes found a way to sell more cars to the masses In my pinion MB should have stayed with only the E and S classes.

Peter

I guess JD Powers hasn't driven my '01 car. It has been very good with no quality gigs. As long as my cars continue to work I don't really care if theirs do or not.

Have a great day,

This audience may be a little biased
 

This audience may be a little biased. Most of the readers of this board know how to maintain a car, and will probably get a long life out of any model. It's the common user that will have trouble. Creating an "entry level" car which is targeted at 20-somethings, that most likely don't even know where the dipstick is, is a formula for failure.

David, you will probably have little trouble with YOUR C class, but I will bet that that is due, in no small part, to YOU, and not the car.

As I recently posted in the ML forum, I went to buy an ML (I am/was quite a die hard mercedes fanatic!), then went to Acura after that, and bought an MDX! The MDX was simply superior to the ML in every single respect, I just couldn't justify paying more for an inferior vehicle.

I have had a 190E for 11 years, and its been quite a trouble.

The mercedes brand is certainly going down. After all, how long can you keep making bad vehicles and expect people to pay more for them? Amongst my numerous friends, who have bought 30K-50K range cars in the last 5 years (and I can recall at least 15 of them rightaway), NONE of them bought a mercedes - most of them bought Audi, BMW, Acura, and lexus. Not one went for mercedes. What does that say - they can't all be wrong and stupid!!

Its just a matter of time, if they don't pull up their socks pretty darn soon!

Hello everyone,
I have been browsing this forum for two years now and have decided to register so that i could respond to this thread.
My father bought a Mercedes 170Va in 1950 and replaced it with a 170DS in 1954. This car ran everyday until 1980 (with a few exceptions) and ran up 800,000 miles. I have considerable experience with cars like W120,121,108, 115, 116, 123, 124, 126 and now a 2000 W163. Mercedes Benz has undergone many changes thru these generations of cars BUT the fundamentals are still there. It is a car that feels like an engineer designed it and then test drove it before releasing the product for sale. Lets not forget, the primary goal of the company is to make money nowadays, so we may never see technological tour de force (and a loss leader) like the W100 again, but the company has survived and continues to make well thought out products.
I have experience of the JD Power surveys, where the dealer shoves a prepared survey sheet to the customer (Mitsubishi did it to my niece after every service) so how can it be an indication of *quality*?
Have a good day.

You know what, when the smoke clears, I don't know what to believe anymore. I can only tell you that my year old Civic has been flawless with only an SRS light coming on.

I defintely feel that Mercedes is no longer what it used to be, simply because their interior and exterior no longer seems to exude the luxury and elegance that it did in previous years. Does this mean that I would buy an old Benz instead? Possibly, but at one point I would become fed up with constantly paying a lot of attention to the vehicle just to keep it running. Don't get me wrong, I am a car freak, however my mechanical skills are not all there plus I don't have anywhere to perform labor anyway.

It would be great to drive one brand of vehicle throughout my whole life but I feel that I couldn't do that. Besides being too expensive for me, Mercedes doesn't measure up to Lexus.

Now that is what owning a Mercedes is about! What a cool story. NO frame damage to the Benz!

Hello,
IIRC, the *older* (pre-80s) cars can be described as *rugged* and *tough*, I certainly never thought of MB tex as luxury or elegance ! My point is that each generation of vehicles has been an improvement (safety, strength, performance, fuel efficiency and luxury etc.). Heck, they offer more than just five colors now. The 1989 W124 I drive has had one power window motor, valve stem seals, timing cover reseal, trans reseal and new shocks(which it did not really need) and has clocked up 145,000 miles. It will still sustain 125mph and run to 134. Perhaps I got a *good one*.
The choice is yours, but I would still put my money on a Mercedes.
Unfortunately, many of the really ground breaking models will never make it to the US, the ML270CDI or the E220CDI for example.
I hate to rub it in, but Lexus is just a badge engineered Toyota, the RX300 is a Toyota Harrier and the LS430 is a Celsior.
BTW, my two year old ML has had no problems at all, apart from the fact that it demolished a GMC Silverado PU in an offset front crash last year (no frame damage to ML, GMC written off).
Take care

With 120,000 kilometers on my C230, it's been more reliable and trouble free than ANY Japanese car we've owned.

And the interior quality and materials are similar to the W140.

My new lemon????
 

Lots of views being expressed here. The one regarding other manufacturers "bribing" people or pressuring them to fill out "excellent" surveys is not foriegn to MB. On the day we bought our new '01 S600 the salesman spent more time worried about his survey score than our ability to work the controls of the car. This was followed up by more than one call regarding the survey. IMO MB is fudging surveys as much as anybody out there.

Now for my MB horror story. The first repair the car required was on the way home from the dealership. The oil level sensor on the car had failed, giving a low oil warning. What kills me is that MB omitted a dipstick on this car so that I can not even check the oil manually anymore. That is STUPID. Next we leave the dealer from having the sensor checked out and once on the highway the car starts shudderring very badly. Turns out that my size 12 bumped the e-brake pedal on the way in. The parking brake light did not illuminate, but it was enough to engage it. Now the rear rotors are warped and I need to check the release every time I get in the car to avoid this problem. The trunk lid is mis-aligned, about a 1/4 inch off on a $130,000 car. The latest and greatest issue is a serious drivability problem for which it is in the shop for the second time as we speak. When making a pass at highway speeds the engine falters above 5000 rpm. For some reason there is un-burned fuel getting through as evidenced by a bad sulfer smell from the exhaust. If I let the car run up to 5-6000 rpm in third gear it will not go any faster, it will not shift to fourth. The top speed of my top of the line V12 powered Mercedes is 105 mph.

At this point I am praying that they are NOT able to fix this car so I can force them to buy it back. It has under 6000 miles on it. It is a spectacular machine, I love it, when it runs. Seems to me that JD Powers is right on the money.

Problem now is what would I replace it with? Lexus is way to staid for my tastes and the new BMW is way to ugly for the road. Sure would be nice if MB would get its act together and build them like my last two G-Wagens. Those are indestructable. :D

It is very angering.
 

MB's decision to chase volume in my opinion is a stupid one.

Why does every business constantly chase sales growth???

I believe that "prestige" brands should not even consider that.

Why not focus on personnel and purchasing and operations savings to improve "the buttom line" which is all these nob gobblers care about.

These are publicly traded companies here we are talking about.
Managing directors receive a bigger bonus (usually more than their salary) if they improve the net profit of the company.

This is a discusting trend we have all seen for some time in business.

Which company does this the most? Ford's "PAG"

How do I know? I am not at liberty to say but I can say trust me here.

Mark Fields is in the helm of PAG now, he believes he can increase net income in the company 9 FOLD by the end of 2006. This is what he said in a recent interview with Time Magazine.

He did this with Mazda but, look at their junk past and present. Cheap materials can be a considered a complement to describing how that scrap is built.

There is a big reason PAG will fail. Wolfgang Reitzle is gone.

Read the August issue of Automobile Magazine. That is the tip of the ice berg.

Actually, Honda and I think also BMW are not publicly traded companies.

honda publically traded? yes indeed
 

Wow, this is news to me!

Not to hi-jack the thread, but I've always read the Honda was a privately held company, that they don't even release their financial information, whether they make money or not, what their profit margins are, etc.


Strange.

Wow I at least thought that the high end (S class) and top of the line (S600) would be at least flawless in the way it was made. Looks like all their cars aren't up to it now. That's very disappointing to hear.

To tell you the truth, I don't know what to trust anymore and what kind of car to buy. I've heard bad things about every car maker but I've heard a lot now about Benz and somethings about BMW.

I heard from the service dept on my S600 just a little bit ago. Last week when it was in for the first drivability fix they put new plugs (12 in one bank!) and a new coil pack on. Now they are replacing at least four fuel injectors on the same side of the engine. I still think they are shooting in the dark on this one. The fault codes finger the injectors but I don't buy it, niether did the last tech that looked at it last week. That will mean a third trip for the same problem, I am honestly shooting for a fourth and a buy back.

My BMW 750 has seen similar woes. It has 45k miles and 19 dealer visits under its belt. Number 20 is coming up as soon as the MB is fixed. It is just an airbag light, for about the sixth time, and likely just a faulty seat belt buckle causing it.

It seems that only Lexus has a handle on keeping the new technology working. On top of that they give you a LEXUS loaner when you bring in your LEXUS car. I have three MB dealers to choose from, two use rental cars and one has a fleet of crusty old Ford Tauruses. What a joke, MB needs to WAKE UP!

In addition I had a HORRIBLE dealer experience. I wrote a letter to MBUSA. That was months ago, no response, EVER! I guess I will just have to seek out nice examples of the 124 and 126 cars as they seem to be the last decent machines MB produced.

With just about all product lines, the most expensive products seem to have the poorest record for overall reliabilty, thanks to pioneering technology.

Go back a decade. The W140 was the least reliable of the MB products.

BMW's V-12 cars (especially the 1988'ish versions) were troublesome cars, to the point of depressing resale values to levels below "garden variety" 5-series cars.

Is this right? Nope. They need to get their act together.

126 is the way to go
 

I agree that the 126 is the way to go. It's the last car MB made when all's they cared about was making cars.

Hatch and Son's have a few in-stock, and they only stock the cream of the crop.

http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/sales/late_model

Well EXCUSE ME for barging in on the bash parade, but I have had nothing but good dealer services from my (and others, once or twice) Mercedes dealership! My entire family, and all of my friends receive nothing but the best from Fletcher Jones Motorcars... although I have heard they can be TERRIBLE to some people.

But I beg to differ, alteast on my end, my family and friends have great experiences when we take our Mercedes' in for service... and we get Mercedes rental cars from Enterprise!

count me in the good MB dealer experience
 

count me in as the good MB dealer experience:D

I can't complain, they have treated us good so far....

...and no big problems with the cars iether (door seal on C, sender unit on ML, brake light switch)

For the Lexus lovers, how about the 3 million cars (RX300, Camry, etc) with potential oil sludge problems?

Your dealer experience with MB seems to be the same as everybody else. I can't remember the last time I heard / read somebody had a good experience at the dealer.

FWIW, everyone I've talked to who owns a Lexus has had zilch to few problems, loved their cars, and waxed poetic about their dealership experience. There are those that have complained about high parts cost, but it doesn't seem to bother them.

MB really needs to get their act together.

The only way to do that is product.

That should be the be all end all.

Fire those *********s picking their bums in the marketing promotions department.

Remember the simple marketing plan of the 80's? Why fix something that isn't broken and wreck it.

I think there are too many heads in there getting paid for no value added work.

Product line needs to be slimmed down, less models.
Staff needs to be slimmed down, less marketers (go back to pushing your junk elsewhere)

The old cars sold themselves, that could happen again.

Jurgen Hubert needs a swift boot out of the top floor window.

I hate to always go against public opinion, but I have found the dealership is made of people, and usually the management is tuned in to making customers happy so they come back. So, if you get to know the people, understand they did not design or build the car, but are there to service it you usually make out ok. It is when you approach the people that are going to service you and your vehicle with an attitude that says I paid $60,000 for this car and it better be perfect that I believe you can make the situation less pleasant than it has to be. My personal relationship with people at the dealership I use goes back a few decades, to the previous owners, and I have generally never had a wholly bad experience. Yes, I have had some stuff fail, and I did have a 350SD that suffered the bad engine syndrome/failure sequence of events, but ultimately they have done their best to make up for the shortcomings of the product, if there were any.

The 1999 C230 Kompressor Sport we had was rock solid reliable for 45,000 miles, the duration of the lease. Not a single component failed. And, when my daughter ran over a truck tire tread that shed in front of her on the Mass Pike the soundproofing above the transmission was apparently knocked loose. When I noticed the extra noise during hard turns I pointed it out to the dealer. The dealership fixed it under warranty. No questions asked. If the car had been a manual transmission version, we would still have it. I hated the automatic, but I hate all automatics.

The same has been true for my 1998 E300D Turbodiesel. The mass air sensor failed while I was on a business trip and I called the dealer to ask if it was something that needed replacement right away. They said no, but I should do it sooner rather than later, and if I brought the car in that day before 2 PM they would fix it while I waited. I did and they did. No antics. I have had to replace both headlight bulbs and a sidemarker lamp bulb. Every other complaint I have had (and I have looked for things to get done before the warranty expires) have been addressed quickly, and with the feeling they enjoyed the opportunity to succeed at making the customer happier with his vehicle.

I have a great relationship with the guys in the parts department, as I have been a good customer for more than twenty years. I buy my Delvac 1 and Mobil 1 0W-40 oil as an adder to their bulk oil purchases, saving me a load of money on oil changes. I believe giving them the opportunity to make me happy is the key. I am never pleased to have to buy a part, but rather than blame them for the part failure or come in with an attitude, I have managed to let them know getting me the part when I need it is doing their job well. I believe everyone likes to do their job well, and they respond favorably to doing business under conditions where their efforts are appreciated and they get to succeed.

I tend to agree other makes of automobile have improved to the point where Mercedes-Benz's edge in reliability and durability has become hard to distinguish. This is expecially true in the first year of ownership. I am betting the 15th through 25th year are going to be better than the competition.

I am also alarmed that Mercedes-Benz, rather than devote resources to continue to ratchet the reliability and durability up a few more notches, has been lured into competing with these other makers on the basis of integrating electronic and electrically powered conveniences. Maybe we are to blame for that as we are the variable in the equation that defines the market by the cars we choose, and we seem to choose cars with more convenience features even though we all know they detract from reliability and durability.

In any case I see the obsession with electronics and electrical goodies distracting the Mercedes-Benz management from the chore of maintaining ultimate reliabilty and durability. This is an especially poor situation when the development schedules and dollars are fixed. Maintaining or improving the legendary reliability and durability gets less of the budget in terms of time and money for every added gizmo that makes it into production. If reliability and durability fall to the point where customers no longer associate Mercedes-Benz with these qualities there will be a general rejection of the automaker's products in the market. Afterall, the GPS system and the infinitely adjustable seats will not get you to your destination if the engine won't start.

As for materials, I think the discussion is like one of style. No one can be right or wrong. New materials are available today for application to every part in the car. Some choices will be good ones and some may not. But overall I doubt any selections have been made to purposely cheapen either appearance or quality just because of cost. For example, I believe some material selections are made to comply with plastic recycling schemes that are invoked in European and other markets. To comply with this initiative Mercedes-Benz may have experienced some constraints on the variety of materials available to select from the day the selection was made. In other cases someone may have made a selection based on styling likes and preferences (I have yet to see a Designo package I think has any semblance of good taste, for example) which others find unappealing.

I have a W123, W124 and W210 in various stages of being used up. Based on experience to date, the W123 is clearly the most durable, and will die when Nature reclaims the body. Unfortunately that is not too far off. Rustproofing on the W124 is much better, and I therefore anticipate the body lasting much longer on that car - but the more electric nature of it's equipment leads me to predict things like the seats, windows, climate controls and so on will be its slow downfall. The W210 is too new to make a real prediction, other than that the seat cushions seem to be heading to a failure before the car gets 100k miles on it, and the shocks seem to be asking to be replaced in hard driving at just over 51,000 miles. Overall I am not impressed with W210's rack and pinion steering and would much prefer the feel of the recirculating ball system on the W123 or W124. We will see how durable it is as time goes on.

Things change, and if Mercedes did not take a leadership role in the changes being implemented in the auto industry it would become uninteresting over time just because of that. Being a leader, out in front on the design and manufacturing in the auto industry is a high risk position. While I do not agree with some of the choices, I do not find the guys at the dealership in my area to be the problem. Jim

D@mmit G-Man, it's your fault for buying that $130,000 S600 :)

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL

Geeese! I'll keep my '84 SD and call it good! I had a goal of eventually buying a new Benz. (They sure are appealing in the showroom!) but I live too far from a dealer to be having to take it in all the time, even if they do stand behind their warrenty.
BTW, I WON"T be buying a new american car again. Our chrysler Cirrus has just over 100k on it now. It has not been a real bad car, but it's had it's problems, and not one thing was ever repaired under warrenty. The Chrysler dealers as I see it don't want to stand behind their product. They would always use stupid excuses why it was MY fault the problem occured.:mad: I maintain my vehicles pretty well!

Hello Jim,
I can only nod in agreement with your post.
Have a god day.

Well I can throw in some dealer experience that my parents had when the S350 started showing its problems. They were very hard to deal with and the upper management that represented the midwest region, was no better. Overall my parents are convinced that they will never buy a Mercedes ever again after all that they have gone through with the S350.

I have owned 7 MB's since 1990, two of them were fairly old when I acquired them so I won't include them in my comments. Of the remaining 5, I purchased a '95E, '97E, and '98E new and a '97C36 and '00E4-matic at less than 3 years old (both currently owned). Obviously I love driving Benzes, but I must admit I'm getting tired of the litany of problems. During the last 10 years I've also had 3 new Hondas in the family, and I find it hard to believe but the total warranty items on all three put together was less than any one of the MB's. I have rationalized my way around this with everything from how nice it is to drive, to safety, to body integrity at 10+ years old but I'm getting tired of hiding the number of dealer visits from my friends that have switched to Toyota, Honda, Acura, Infinity and Lexus who enjoy the ribbing. Be that as it may, I use two dealers, one in my home city and one near my vacation home, they have both been terrific and the owners are now personal friends outside the showroom. MB Canada on the other hand tend to be unresponsive, have poor or non-existant customer skills, arrogant at times and generally have a "we can do no wrong and know it all attitude". They have looked after me well due to the dealers' effort. In conclusion, I love driving the cars but a major shakeup at MB is in order. The component failure is too high ( on a par with my 3 Dodge Caravans). The rattles, squeaks and bad radio reception in this day and age is unacceptable. I don't want to list the problems here, but I convinced myself that it was due to leading edge technology, in retrospect the problems have been in ordinary items like belt tensioners, head gaskets etc. that are common to other manufacturers. I hate to admit it but when I am due for a new family vehicle I will do some real soul searching before I write a cheque for another MB, not withstanding my personal relationships. I am getting rather disillusioned and no longer have the patience to continue to make excuses for MB's quality or reliability record. I certainly wouldn't own one past the extended warranty. The excuses just don't cut it anymore, MB needs to figure out how the Japanese manufacturers seem to avoid the large number problems. I know they are not perfect either but MB needs to take a hard look at their problems or they eventually will lose repeat customers and buyers for their used vehicles.

G-Man, if I had the money to spend I would toss those new MB and BMW and buy the AUDI S8. Get one of those man, they are killer cars in every possible way. Cheaper than the S600, too.

I hope I did not leave the wrong impression about my dealer experiences. To clear the air, here is my personal experience. Fletcher-Jones in Newport Beach is where we bought the car. The salesman was quite knowledgeable and the day of the sale was a pleasant experience. Everything beyond that first day with them was a nightmare. I attribute this to the sheer size of the place. My needs were lost in the shuffle. I am sure the scenario is to free up the salesman to sell and let others handle after sales details. My salesman did not do a good job at fullfilling the remaining parts of their sales obligation. He was only following the system in place and it was certainly not a malicious act. Still it was very frustrating for six weeks after the sale. It could have been handled in a matter of days, oh well:(

My servicing dealers in Minnesota have been very good to work with. I live about 150 miles from the nearest dealer. They have been quite good at squeezing me in and meeting my needs on short notice. They manage to get me in when I am down for business. I am very appreciative of this and let them know. I do not go in with an attitude. I agree, this will NOT result in a good experience. So short of the pathetic service loaner situation I am pleased with the service and realize they are trying their best to fix my car.

What does not fly with me is a top of the line new Mercedes needing the following repairs before it reaches 6000 miles. The oil level sensor failure, a mass airflow sensor failure, mis-aligned trunk lid, and the current drivability problem that so far has required replacement of the plugs and coil pack on one bank and todays replacement of multiple fuel injectors. I doubt they have found the problem and anticipate the call saying it did not fix the problem. I do not blame the dealer or the techs. I always try to make my way out into the shop and demonstrate that, even though I am a young S600 owner, I am not a snob and I have a very good understanding of what they are doing. I like to know what is going on with my car, and forging a relationship with the tech helps me and them fix the car.

I also do not care for all of the new electronics, though I am guilty of buying a car full of them. We passed on the BMW 745 for this reason, it just seemed like way to much new junk to break down, which I understand is happening. That said, I also find the various features of my S600 make the car an absolute joy to operate, a bit of a catch 22:p

Every car has problems.

Like I say everytime this issue comes up, I don't trust these Reports, because I see no breakdown of what issues were reported for each manufacturer.

I say do it based on specifics, I.E. Categories for each problem type.

I would like to see results for:
fit and finish
Engine
Transmission
Brakes
Suspension

ETC ETC ETC.

How many problems per category were reported for any manufacturer?

I'm not defending mercedes here, but I am trying to point out that I want to see specifics of what problems were reported and how many per manufacturer.

Alon