how to align front wheels - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

jcantor · #16 08-21-2002, 12:36 PM

I need to have my car aligned today due to the replacement of some suspension components yesterday (LH control rod bushing and RH caster adjuster) and a weekend trip to MA. Out of habit with other cars and convenience, I've made an appointment at the local NTB for after work.

Three questions:
1. Does anyone have experience with their alignments on M-B and are they likely to have this spreader?
2. If they don't, is how can they go about mimicking the spreader to get the proper measurements?
3. If I can't get them to do either one or two, will they at least be able to get things close enough to protect the tires for 500+ miles so that I can get things done "correctly" next week or would I be better off just waiting to get it done "correctly"?

Thanks in advance.
jlc

tvpierce · #17 08-21-2002, 02:14 PM

I don't think it's possible to have a "default" or factory length for tie rods. It seems like there are too many variables elsewhere in the suspension/steering systems.

I would just take the old ones off without adjusting them. Then set them back to back on your bench so you can adjust the new ones to the same length. Then install the new ones, and make an appointment at your prefered shop. I think the earlier suggestions for allignment are just to get you close enough to make the car drivable so you can get it alligned by a professional.

jp

haasman · #18 08-21-2002, 06:51 PM

Richard Easley

thank you for walking into the "Spreader Bar and Alignment" topic hell.

I had both of the 300 series (124's) aligned at the local independent "high-quality" tire store. Both cars suffered from poor alignments. both times I requested the use of a spreader bar and was basically laughed out of the place. "We've got this high-tech &$&$^ machine ....". Finally I took both cars to the local MBZ dealership, requested the use of the spreader bar to which they replied "we always use it on older cars" and .... the alignments were GREAT.

haasman · #19 08-21-2002, 08:28 PM

Richard

I think you are exactly right. Even further, if a consumer isn't completely educated on whatever product they are trying to repair, improve or even work with, they are basically screwed, with a few exceptions.

I honestly went to the "alignment shop" five times. Bad tire wear, always pulling.

I finally had them buy me new tires and refund my money for the alignment! I continue to use them for tires, which they are great at, but not for alignments.

It drove me crazy .... "Weeelll we haven't seen one of them spreeederr baarrrs in ....How long Jeb?" BS!

OK, I've vented.

Jeff

#20 08-21-2002, 09:23 PM

Interesting post, hassman --

I think that what you experienced at both of the alignment shops was a defense mechanism. After all, if one doesn't have a clue about something, the easiest path to take is to ridicule it, right?

I mean, they are supposed to be the experts, so what can a customer possibly know that they wouldn't already know? If they would take half a second to think logically about the purpose of the spreader bar, then it should make perfect sense.

Richard Easley
Waco, Texas

#21 08-21-2002, 10:51 PM

Why fool around and waste money on alignments that are done incorrectly, on pre-mature tire wear, on lost time and money? Why not go to someone who is an expert on MB alignment and get the job done correctly the first time?

I was told that once a Mercedes was aligned correctly, it stayed that way. That's been my experience and I believe it.

Bud

jcantor · #22 08-22-2002, 06:53 AM

Well I think my car survived alignment and balencing at NTB last night. It definately tracks well and what vibrations remained after the replacement of the suspension parts are all but gone now. However I watched the entire process and not only did they not use a spreader bar but they didn't do anything to the rear wheels which I thought were also adjustable. They did give me a printout of the various settings before and after and the rear was in fine shape to begin with.

Not being very used to M-B yet, I can't say that I feel anything in the way the car handles that would lead me to believe that more aligning needs to be done so all that remains is to watch for poor tire wear.

For the future, though, is anyone aware of any shops other than the local dealer who will do the alignment "correctly"?

jlc

#23 08-22-2002, 08:09 AM

It's amazing IMHO how much MYSTERY surrounds alignment!

Every MB car I've seen has adjustments for every angle and dimension. You absolutely do not need to bend anything unless there has been crash damage!

Tire balancing requires an IQ above mental retardation, but the alignment guy requires much more and needs to be experienced and properly trained. There is rarely anyone at the tire store that can and will do a good job.

Someone who knows what they're doing, can do a better job with a piece of string and a stick, than many of the alignment "experts" at the tire stores can accomplish with $50,000 worth of equipment.

Some time ago, I read a post by Steve Brotherton that outlined his approach to an alignment which included a test drive BEFORE putting the car on his alignment rack. When was the last time you had an alignment guy do this? Most likely never.

I have driven well over a million miles in various cars, most of those miles in an MB and I have NEVER had to go to an alignment shop. There have been a few times when I got into a situation where I was wearing tires, but it was because there was something wrong, like an idler arm, or I had my head where the sun doesn't shine and forgot to check wheel bearing tightness before using my "scribed line and tape measure" method. This is the method that has taken my 240D 533,000 miles without EVER finding itself on an alignment machine.

I truly believe that if the truth were known, you would find a high percentage of alignment jobs done, particularly in the tire stores, are slam bam jobs, where they just set the toe and charge the $50 or more. I think that Steve Brothertons savvy and attention to detail is the exception rather than the rule.

My suggestion? Either learn how to do it properly yourself, or seek out someone like Steve that knows what they're doing. When you find that shop, don't expect them to have the fanciest alignment pit in the state. They may very well have that, but just because they do have an expensive machine does not, in anyway, indicate that they know or care about what they are doing.

I fully expect that if you find someone like Steve and he is somehow without his alignment machine, he will be capable of doing a better job with a stick and a piece of hay twine than your local tire store can do with their $50,000 alignment pit.

Last point, the most brilliant front end alignment expert in the world cannot perform magic. If you have worn parts and you have your alignment set, you are washing your feet and then putting on dirty socks.

My $0.02,

tvpierce · #24 08-22-2002, 10:14 AM

Excellent points Larry. The best allignment I've found in my area is at a spring and suspension place (Palmer Spring for anyone who lives in Southern Maine). These guys have been in business for 150 years! (started out making springs for horse-drawn wagons... literally) They work on suspension and steering systems for *anything*! When I bring my car there, the vehicle in the next bay might be a tandem-axle Kenworth dumptruck. They even make their own leaf springs from raw steel stock. The guy who does my cars is in his 50s and really knows his stuff -- plus he has really good equipment. (unbeatable combination)
I get my tires at the tire place, then drive my car to Palmers for the allignment.

Jeff Pierce

#25 08-26-2002, 11:06 AM

hmm well I've just changed all my tie rods now the cambor is way off anyone know how that could happen so instead of my wheel being straight up and down | the wheel now looks like this \
how can this be adjusted, for the car is barely drivable now?
I couldn't find any thing else to adjust or to even place a wrench other than the top of the ball joint.

Jeff

Arthur Dalton · #26 08-26-2002, 02:26 PM

Camber gauges, spreader bars, curtain rods , etc..

Naturally, a good tech and equipment to do it right, but for the DIY guy, here are a few things to add to this post...[as I know them, anyway]

The given Toe measurement specs are the measurement from the Wheel edge, not the tire [ on zero toe, this makes no difference, but on anything else , it does -- ie, the farther you get from the wheel center , the larger this measurement , be it +/-, will become]
Toe measure is actually supposed to be equally split on each side of the chassis longtitude center line. This means on a 1/8 toe -in spec., each wheel rim should be equally distant from the centerline of the car with the front measurement
being 1/16" less than the rear. That gives a total of 1/8 when each side is totaled up. The practical way of measurement for the DIYer, of course, is to measure the total [wheel to wheel/front to back comparison]
In order for correct toe measurements [ along with it being the last spec to be adjusted], the wheel distances measurement should be made
at the the horizontal center-line of each wheel. [front/back] This simply means that the measurement point on the wheel edge should be at axle centerline height from the ground. Reasoning here is that
the camber angle does not demensionally effect this point.
One of the problems with the curtain rod , tape measure , etc.
measuring tecnique is that one is usually below this point due to oil pans , tie rods belly pans, etc. not allowing one to get up to axle height with the tape[ or what ever one uses]
An easy tool for DIYer on this one is to make an outside caliper
[I can post a real easy to make/use one , if anyone is interested..] that allows this point to be measured from outside the wheel edge, both front and back with no obstructions.
Keep in mind that these are just simple home made measuring devices and there accuracy is dependent on the maker...

On the camber measure, here is another jig tool that, even though simple , can be fairly accurate with the maker paying attention to the Indexing of the degree marks.
This one is simply a plumb bob string [ no snickering] fixture that is held against the rim edge in the verticle position with a bob for index comparison. The bob stand-off distance from the rim is to allow clearence for the wheel bearing cap, as that usually sticks out a little from the rim...
The indexing measurement spacing differs with wheel diameter, so that has to be fiqured by the maker accordingly..
The trick using this tool is , of course, that the car be on a level surface..
When using these jigs , it is important to roll the car back and forth to let the suspension settle- in to the normal driven position.
As both tools can measure without any jacking/moving of the car , this adds to the ability to get close to spec..

ftp://members.aol.com/ajdalton7/camb.jpg

mndwgz · #27 08-29-2002, 11:06 PM

I just had both tie-rods replaced on my 190D by the local farm equipment mechanic (mercedes trained in Switzerland). He set the toe-in with a piece of bailer twine wrapped around all four wheels, measured the distance at the front of the tire (4mm each at the front) and ..... perfect tracking, centered steering wheel, etc.

Way high tech. Gotta love it.

tvpierce · #28 09-01-2002, 10:24 PM

j shepardson,

On my car ('92 190E) the camber is adjusted at the control arm. The bolts on which the control arm pivots have eccentric (not sure of the spelling) washers that position the control arm laterally in relation to the car.

However, I don't think it's possible for tie rod adjustment/replacement to affect camber.

Jeff Pierce

stevebfl · #29 09-01-2002, 10:49 PM

I wrote an article for "Import Car" earlier this year on MB alignment issues. Half way through writing it the spreader bar issue came up on this forum. It bothered me terribly as I had known of it but never used it over the thirty years I have aligned cars (most of them MBs). I purchased the spreader bar just before the article went to print and from the few measurements made for the article and from many since, I get around 1mm toe change with it. This is fairly insignificant to one who is using tire wear as a significant input to setting specs.

For anyone interested the article can be viewed here: http://www.continentalimports.com/ser_ic4232.html

#30 09-05-2002, 03:27 PM

Hi Arthur,

I just replaced some front end components and am planning a visit to the allignment shop. I was hoping you would see this post and offer me the instructions on making the measurement device for doing an allignment. I am anxious to try and then compare with the results from the shop.

As you mentioned getting measurements between the front and back of the front wheels is not possible becuase I don't have a clear shot. Stuff under the car gets in the way.

Thanks,
Joel

I am also curious as to how I would get a precise measurement, for example if I use a tape measure I could not precisely line up to wheel. Would have to bend measure like when framing and get probably at least and 1/8 of inch off.