As to the warning attributed to me, I don't remember stating such and don't remember ever seeing such a warning. I can't imagine MB making such a statement even if true.

From my point of view cars built in the last ten years cost many times the previous ones when a repair becomes necessary. I make this analogy. New systems are infinitely better built, they are infinitely more complicated, and there are an infinitely larger number of them. The result is infinitely greater costs. (got two inifinities against one).

124 is a great car, so is a 123.123. I know lots of customers that would pay dearly for a new model of either.

__________________
Steve Brotherton
Continental Imports
Gainesville FL
Bosch Master, ASE Master, L1
33 years MB technician

I converted my 190E to R134A about a year ago. The evaporator unit on the W201 is easy to replace as you can access it from a sub panel in the engine bay and via the top panel area under the wiper arm. Too bad the W124 designers did not follow this plan, as it only takes a couple of hours to R&R the evaporator.

Anyway, with the evaporator replaced, AC filter and condenser, I converted to R134A with ester oil. AC blows at about 48 degrees (with recirc on) with no issues at all. Because of the higher pressure of the R134A, I charged the system to about 80% of the max.

In my car, the R134A is blowing just as cold as the R12 did.

__________________
1993 500E
http://2phast.com/500e/500e-sig.jpg

How quickly a system begins to blow cool is very important to me. After my car has been sitting all day in the sun, I want to start feeling cool air very soon. Will a properly performing W124 with R12 even do that? Right now it takes about five miles of highway speed driving before you even begin to notice a difference in the cabin temp!! After that it cools but won't ever get cold on a 90 degree day.

Steve, I think that the person that wrongly attributed that statement to you was confused. I *believe* that they are referencing Frank Barrett's (editor of The Star) MB Buying Guide.

While we're talking about A/C improvements here, do you have any experience with converting MB serpentine condensers to the newer parallel type? I am assuming that this is one of the key factors in a "full" R134a conversion.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone has experience with retrofitting a R12 system with a parallel condenser *and* continuing with R12. It would seem to me that this might enable one to gain additional low-speed cooling efficiency.

Richard Easley
Waco, Texas

Hello all,
After reading all of the comments in this thread, I thought I'd post a problem I recently ran across... A friend of mine has a 240D and AC that didn't blow very cold. Also, he complained that his aux fan wouldn't turn on. He brought it over, and we checked it out, with the thought of adding some R12, but when I put it on the Napa ATC 5000 machine, it only showed 57 psi on the high side, 30 on the low side. Output air was around 55 degrees, ambient around 75. Thinking that it might be low on R12, I added a few oz, but this only caused the belt to slip. Further diagnosis showed that the compressor outlet pipe was very hot, but the high side port on the 240D is on the other side of the engine, after the hose that goes under the engine. The condenser was hot for the first 2 inches down from the inlet, but by then cooled very rapidly, and the receiver/drier was cool. All this indicated that the real problem was a defective hose from the outlet of the compressor to the other side of the engine. I have seen this hose fail before on other vehicles, the oil apparently causes it to expand and close itself off. So, keep in mind that there are many ways for systems to fail. Keep an open mind, and remember the temperature/pressure charts will tell you the facts when working on AC systems!
Richard Wooldridge
'82 300D/4.3V6 (converted to R134 with engine conversion, works fine in the NW)
'77 Jag XJ6 (Alternate refrigerant for 5 years, no problems, great AC)
'89 Astrovan (Dual air with R12, works extremely well)
'85 GMC S15 (converted to R134, works fine, fingers crossed w/R4 compressor - I don't think R4 compressors and R134 like each other, though)
Etc...

Interesting post Richard, and something rarely thought of to a DIYer. That loosened a memory I had from an installation I did in the early eighties. I took a Fridgi King underdash unit out of a junk truck and installed it in my 68 Ford 100 I had restored. I did this at a friends auto parts store/shop. We flushed the system, installed new dryer and hooked everything up, evacuated and charged it. No cold air. My friend began to feel the hoses and lines. When he got to the flare connection at the condensor, he said "feel this". The line was HOT to the fitting. On the other side it was cool. He took a small hammer and gently tapped on the fitting. Whatever was blocking it came loose and the system worked fine for another 12 years.

Gentlemen - did I condemn the car - no. I said it is overwheming me with the costs of repair and that I would not have purchased it knowing what I know now.

Besides the AC, there are the issues of the B2 piston in the transmission, the "plastic" radiator in which the neck will eventually break, the cruise control units and the ac/heater control units. All of these are weak areas for the "finest car".

The radiator and B2 piston are big issues because failure of either could leave stranded in in the middle of nowhere, or Podunk, USA, where they have never heard of MB.

Another minor point is that the differential struts/control arms tend wear out prematurely on the 300D according to my mechanic. The replacements have been beefed up. I saw the ones he took off my vehicle and the were shot.

As for the statement Steve made - I could have mis-interpreted his statement from "Mercedes-Benz: A/C Diagnostics & Evaporator Replaement". To quote "Two of it's finest lines of the last 20 years, the 124 and 140 chassis, now come with footnotes about their cost of ownership due to the air conditioning costs". I thought it was MB making it somewhere, but after looking at the article, I do not know who made the "footnote". My mistake on that part. Where did the "footnote" come from?

Ron

I would like to second Richard's question about the newer style condensors.... has anyone actually installed one of these...

I am thinking about getting one even though I am going to stay with R12 in my 1980 240d.... I am also in Central Texas.... and with the small engine I want to help the system if I can while it is opened up....Thanks, Greg

I don't know which one of you posted which comment, but I am responding to some comments made during the thread.

Someone indicated that their 124 took 5 miles to even start blowing cold air. To this I reply that there is something wrong. My '88 124 car, midnight blue, is very comfortable in a very short time, even after sitting in the afternoon Texas sun in August.

Then back to the 124 issue, the comment involved several complaints about weaknesses of the 124. I have experienced no failures of any of the indicated components in my 300E in 226,000 miles. One of those components was the heater control which is indeed one of the climate control related items that is a known weakness and mentioned in the MB Buyers Guide.

It could be that you are just having bad luck. Anything can break on any car. I hope you are able to get past the bad luck and enjoy the reliability that I have enjoyed.

Have a great day,

I think part of the reason the 124 (and other MB models) are perceived as having certain weaknesses is the amount of information available about these cars. You can hop onto this site and thorougly research most any model. Find out its problem areas, its strengths, carry on discussions with owners who have decades of ownership experience and millions of miles under their belts. Where do you get that kind of information about any other brand? There's no Toyota board like this site. Does that mean a Toyota is more reliable? No, it only means we don't know anything. It may make the Toyota seem more reliable because we don't know anything about its problem areas, whereas we know the 124 has certain areas that tend to cause owners headaches. If I go out to purchase a 150K mile 124, I know exactly what to look for, exactly what I am getting into. If I go out to buy a 150K mile Camry (pretty far fetched scenario - I'd invest in running shoes or bicycle tires first...) I have no idea what I'm getting into. So which is better?

jcyuhn and Larry

jcyuhn - Good point about being able to access info on the MB. I did mention that that is what I appreciated about these sites in my thread that started the whole donneybrook.

Larry - thank you for wishing me good luck and hoping that I get to enjoy the vehicle. I hope I can, but I purchased it as a travel car because the ride of an MB is like no other vehicle on the road. I just do not have the confidence to take it on a trip. I am glad that at least I have found out that there are things that need to be addressed with this vehicle. Granted, breaking down can happen to any car, but what other "things" might show up when I am in the middle of nowhere. The AC is not a stranding issue, but are there any other hidden surprises with this vehicle? So, it sits in the garage and I work on it as funds and time permit.

Again, I apprecite sites like this that provide the information it does. I am just use to the relatively low maintenance of the 75 300 D that I purchased as the 3rd owner and presently has 283,000 miles on it. Granted the 115 and the 123 do not have the ride, but they seem to have the durability. I keep thinking each winter that it will be the last for the 75, but it keeps starting and running. The 87 has just set me back and my confidence has been shaken in the vehicle.

Ron

I too fell into the "Mercedes last forever" trap. W124s are no better than anything else out there and a lot more expensive than most. The only reason the ones that aren't junked are still on the road is because people have so much money in them they can't afford to park them. I'd sell mine in a minute for $5,000 but it ain't worth $500. If you're gonna spend $400 a month for upkeep, you can drive a newer, more reliable car. All my W124 does well is sit in the garage and consume money.

These responses are amazing to me. I depend on my 124 just as I depended on my 123, 240D. One of the top reasons I drive them is that no matter how many miles are on them, I can travel on a 600 mile trip to see a customer with ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE about getting there.

I drove my 240D to well over 300,000 miles before I decided that it might be a good idea to carry a tool box in the car with me. My 240D, in over a half million miles NEVER left me stranded. It had a homing instinct that caused the very few failures I ever experienced to occur within about five miles of home. This was amazing considering that in a given week I typically drove it well over a thousand miles and was commonly at least 250 miles from home.

My 300E has 226,000 miles. I have spent very little money on the preventive and corrective maintenance of this car. It doesn't really look like much, but I would not be afraid to go anywhere in it with no serious examination before hand.

If my boss walked in the door right this instant and told me to drive to California immediately (1400 miles across the desert) I would check tire pressure, top off the fuel tank, get on the Interstate and set the cruise control and would be absolutely, 100% confident that I would get to California in comfort and on time. I would not be a bit more confident taking the trip in my '01, C240 with 19,000 miles on it.

I don't know what other high mileage cars I could feel that confident about.

My $0.02,

Larry your car is in the classification I call "the Datsun type". They run seemingly forever without any problems...until they fall apart all at once. Fortunately for the previous owner of mine, he sold it to me just before that happened. Hope yours holds up forever but you may want to keep the Fastlane number handy. I have a feeling you may need it soon.

Sorry, I just can't see that happening. The 123 went over 500,000 miles and is now setting next to my barn. When I put it back on the road, I fully expect to have it in the same reliable condition as the 124.

These cars are machines like any other. If you keep an eye on what's going on, you can tell when something needs attention. I don't consider myself a neophyte about cars. I've been pulling wrenches since I was in elementary school. I grew up in a "car" family. I've driven well over a million miles and I've seen alot of things about alot of different cars. A solid built car like a Benz doesn't just drive along for several hundred thousand miles, then fall apart all at once like in a cartoon or something.

What possibly could make a car do this simply because it is a certain make or model? Will things break over time? Of course, they are machinery that has to wear out at one point or another. But for it all to just collapse, sorry, but I just don't see that happening.

It's not as if my many hundreds of thousands of MB miles have been scattered across many cars. Most of these miles have been with two that have seen multiple hundreds of thousands of miles.

Sorry to be misconnecting here, but I just can't, at all, follow this logic.

Have a great day,