Any truth to PFTE aditives like Slick 50?
 

Any truth to PFTE aditives like Slick 50?I seem to recall a commercial where they drained the oil out of a Slick 50 treated airplane engine and still flew it...obvious PFTE additives are not going to replace metal, but do they work? I a m somewhat skeptical

I personally won't run a car without Duralube - even my 560 sel is treated with it. Slick 50 I have heard also works but does something to the metal so that when you want to hone a cylinder at a later date - it makes it very hard as the honing stones have trouble cutting the metal due to the Slick 50 deposits. I started using duralube 10 years ago. I tried it in my lawnmower (not an IC engine - just aluminum bore) and that lawnmower as edged my 5 acres and trimmed around the trees and shrubs for 10 years and I have never touched the engine and it still does not burn oil and has good compression.
My daughter ran her Duralube treated VW Diesel dry because the valve cover gasket was leaking and she never checked the oil for 6 months. A lifter started knocking and it sounded like a pounded out main bearing. Only 1/2 quart of oil drained out of the oil pan. I tore the engine apart and there was no scoring or marking on the shells. The pistons rings had only a slight razor edge to them. I changed the lifter and reassembled the engine. That was 2 years ago. The engine uses 1 litre of oil every 3000 miles and still runs great. My 1980 Olds 350 4 barrel has been treated with Duralube and even at 30 below not plugged in - it cranks rapidly and fires. A friend of mine has a 5 hp air compressor that would dim the lights when it started up for 30 seconds (low supply voltage). We changed the oil to pure Duralube and the lights only flicker for a second or two when the compressor starts. That was 4 years ago - and it still runs great. He now uses Duralube in his 1967 Chevy that he restored. Last year my son got a "new" Jetta diesel that needed an engine rebuild. We rebuilt it and after it broke in - treated it with Duralube. The car uses 1/2 quart of oil every 4,000 miles. Do not use duralube on an engine that has not been broken in as it will never break in properly due to the reduced friction that will prevent the rings from seating.
Some out there still think it is snake oil. As you can tell - I swear by it. Cheapest insurance against engine damage I have found.

There is an article about engine oil and additives you may want to check out -

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng12.shtml

I have never ran any of my engines with any additives and never will. Some additives marketers are shinning some miracle results by using their ''magic in a plastic bottle''. Some have been sued for false/deceiving advertizing (slik50) and all other have never been able to demonstrate any benefit eother in real life or in lab tests.
Any product containing PFTE can be disastrous for an engine. PFTE is a solid lubricant (like a powder) and can seriously block some small oil passages. Stay away.
I've worked for over 25 years in the lubricant business developing/testing/blending/analyzing/comparing/torturing all kinds of lubricants for a major oil manufacturer. I've worked in conjunction with car manufacturers and engine development labs (both USA and europe) searching ways of improving lubrication. I've seen/tested probably over 150 different miracle additives and NONE ever came close to providing 5% of their claimed benefits. Some of these additives are even incompatible with motor oils as their components will react negatively with the additive packages already part of all brands of the engine oil.
If you feel comfortable using them, fine with me, but from what I've seen, I'd say that all aftermarket additive manufacturers are excellent marketers but very poor tribologists.
Miracles never come in small plastic bottles.
JackD

Agree with Jack.
Stay away.
I have never seen an additive withstand any credible independent testing.
What they do have going for them is unbelievable profit margins.

One more thing to consider. How many cars are actually sent to the junkyard because their well-maintained motor simply wore out?

I have not yet owned or seen a motor that died in this manner.
What typically kills a motor?
1)Overheating
2)Oil starvation
3)Oil not changed
4)Timing belt snapped
5)Head gasket failed

Low "Slipperyness" of oil does not make the list.

Of course, I live in the northeast, where electrolytic reactions always cause cars to 'meet their maker' long before the motors die...

For what it is worth, I notice about a 5-10% fuel mileage increase when I add a can of STP to the oil of my diesels.

Oil Additives
 

I used to run a BMW 750 and there ws a lot of debate on additives on the Bimmer.org board. The consensus was that they are an expensive waste of money at best and positively harmful at worst. It certainly put me off them for life. If anyone is interested do a search on the board - there are links to loads of other sites covering this topic. At least we can make informed decisions.

Andy

For those running late model iron, beware. My owner's manual clearly states that using engine oil additives voids my new car warranty.

Different strokes for different folks. I guess I have been throwing my money away on Duralube. If there is no advantage to using it you'd figure the consumers and sellers of it would smarten up since it has been on the market for 16 years. I guess the increased cranking speed, quieter operation, smoother idle, better gas mileage, and reduced heat after putting Duralube into my engines must have been figments of my imagination. Son of Gun - Live and Learn

For a clunker on it's last legs, sure, why not?

Any other car, I agree with Jack and csnow, "no".

This topic can almost get as heated as the "is there a god debate" -- a cut 'n paste from one of my other posts on this subject:

It's all in the chemistry. Many of the compounds in those additives, such as zinc dialkyldithiophosphate are already in motor oil, so you're just adding more of a good thing, that can lead to deposit formation on your valves, spark plug fouling and deterioration of catalytic converters.

Some of those additives may "help" motors that have ALOT of miles and have low compression -- like a "band aid". But I don't see the need for their use in healthy, well maintained engines.

Slick-50 and the other additives that contain polytetrafluoroethylene (or Teflon) is a solid that coats non-moving parts like oil passages and filters. If it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a cylinder wall, so it stands to reason it should build up even better in places with low pressures and virtually no friction.

Mr Moedip: You said you've been using one of those miracle additive for 10 years and you still can ''feel'' a quieter operation, smoother idle, better mileage, reduced heat.....You have quite a memory.
DuraLube and a number of other miracle additive producers have been sued by the Federal Trade Commission for deceptive advertizing and false statements. Read this:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/9905/duralub2.htm
and
http://www.ftc.gov/os/2000/05/duralube.do.htm

Duralube lost in appeal.
Sorry to dampen you illusions but you have been had by a very well designed marketing campain. A large number of companies have been in business for much more than 16 years selling lousy products.

JackD

Never use PTFE in a Mercedes engine!!!
 

Frank King, the Technical Editor of The Star Magazine, wrote about this in the November / December 1992 issue.

"Mercedes Benz statements that additives may impair the quality of your engine oil, and that those containing PTFE are particularly unacceptable-have often been repeated.

Several tests were conducted on additives containing PTFE and increased wear developed in the critical area between valve stems and camshaft. The record showed no increase in engine power and no fuel savings, and a higher rate of wear on piston rings. PTFE is also a solid and can block oil passages, which are expecially critical in an engine engineered to such tight tolerances as a Mercedes Benz engine.

Castrol's experts have observed in their test engines a layer of fluoride, which causes higher friction and favors corrosion. In addition, substances which contain PTFE at temperatures above 400 degrees Celsius decompose and can give off poisonous hydroflouric acid.

Such alarms have also been raised by the German Federal Environment Office, which says, "The inclusion of PTFE as an engine oil additive leaves...toxic compounds from the expected decomposition...and is therefore....rated as detrimental.

A quick search on the NET will show you that, among others:
Castrol Syntec power System
Valvoline Engine Treatment
Motor Up
Prolong
Slik 50
Duralube
STP Engine treatment
have all been sued by the Federal Trade Commission for false and deceiving advertizing, unproven/untrue statements with the sole objective of luring customers.
Fines for some of them were up to $20Millions.
I rest my case.
jackD

The conglomerate that now owns Quaker State also owns Slick 50. This company has rid itself of all it's processing plants and buys oil from others for remarketing. Quaker State is not what is used to be.

uhhh, MoS2 - Molybdenum Disfulfide. see "Lubro Moly" in partsshop. this thread would not be complete without the granddaddy of oil additives (predates teflon/PTFE i'm sure)...

This is from the FTC Order against Dura Lube:

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that respondents shall:

A. Within fifteen (15) days after the date of service of this order, send by first class certified mail, return receipt requested, to each purchaser for resale of Dura Lube with which respondents have done business since January 1, 1994, notice of this order in the form attached as Attachment A. The mailing shall not include any other documents;

Did anyone receive such a letter? They should have required they post it at Point Of Sale locations!

Check out this link - Look under "Snake Oil"

http://www.miata.net/garage/garagemaintenance.html

Speaking of MOS2, (molybdenum desulfide), here's an extract from NASA tests on what they have to say about it:.
''The "Snake Oil!" article refers to NASA Lewis Research Center tests that concern MoS2. The "Snake Oil!" article quotes NASA as follows: "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effects. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at the inlet, and they act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually going to deprive that part of the lubricant."
MOS2 is in fact a very good lubricant BUT it is a solid mineral which insoluble and never dillutes into oil. It always remain a solid (very fine powder) with particules ranging from 2 to 10 microns. As with teflon, this material has the very bad habit of clogging small oil passages and accumulates in parts of the engine where oil flow is slower.
Here's some good reading:

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-additives.html

JackD

Granted, there is an awful lot of advertising hype out there that the oil additive companies should get sued for and I'm certainly not defending them. However, for what its worth, when I was driving my 240D on a daily 80 mile mostly freeway commute, I consistently got 24 mpg and if I added STP to the 15-40 oil at a 3500 interval change, I got 26 mpg. I ran this test a number of times over a couple of years so I know that it was real. That increase certainly isn't going to make anybody rich, but it surely will pay for the can of STP and a decent lunch.
I can't tell if it affects my E car as that one is subject to varied driving routes so I can't do a controlled test.
Frankly, modern oil is so good that anything that is added to it can at best only produce a marginally better product, but some things can easily produce negative effects by having incompatible ingredients working against each other. We simply don't know what ingredients an oil manufacturer has used and we also don't know exactly what is really in an additive, so we are guessing about the safety to our engines. I think I'd get a lot of agreement that the best thing for an engine is to change the oil on an advanced schedule.

Jack, as usual you're always the King of the oil threads! Thanks for your insight.

This horse is almost dead but I have seen a copy of a memo, written by the Dupont company, who manufactures Teflon (PTFE) and it states clearly that Teflon should not be used as an additive to lubricants. I have not looked for the memo, nor am I going to but it is out there somewhere.

i'd like to see the findings on MoS2, none of the links on this thread refer to it specifically. i believe that modern products such as lubro moly have superfine particles much smaller than before and have improved dispersion characteristics avoiding the older problems.

BTW, in another thread MoS2 was also lumped with the snake oil products which elicited a lot of learned response from many of the forum veterans:

MoS2

Regarding Snake Oils (Duralube, Slick 50)
My opinnion is that they are have already spent milliions in false advertising and have made several more millions doing this. Why would they bother to make a better product when in reality it was all BS to begin with. They'll just continue to false advertise until they are shut down.

There are hundreds of startup companies created every day built on false claims. They continue to make their millions until the government steps in and finally shuts them down for false advertising. These people don't care because they've already pocketed their millions and are already moving on to the next big scam. I wonder if their are any Class action suits against these additive companies.....that would bring some attention to them.

Jack D - you stated "Mr Moedip: You said you've been using one of those miracle additive for 10 years and you still can ''feel'' a quieter operation, smoother idle, better mileage, reduced heat.....You have quite a memory. "
How dare you attack my integrity with such an ignorant statement. Can you remember things from ten years ago? No? Neither can I. Then don't suggest that I am so stupid as to make such a statement in an attempt to ridicule me in this forum. When the Duralube treatment wears off, I can hear and see the difference in the performance of my engines. Upon adding Duralube at oil change I CAN tell the difference in performance, and with 6 cars to maintain I have many opportunities to witness the difference and I don't have a miracle memory that goes back ten years.
The FTC took ALL additive companies, and some oil companies to court for over zealous advertising. As you can see, Duralube VOLUNTARILY settled and changed their advertising as it was cheaper than extended litigation. There are NO CREDIBLE TESTS the FTC recognizes for additives and they suggested the additive companies jointly develop such a test. Draw your own conclusions.
For your information - Duralube is unlike the other additives out there --- it is a PURE LIQUID. It does not have any PTFE's, molybdenum desulfide, lead, or graphite or any other SOLIDS in suspension. I agree wholeheartedly that these solids can and might do damage to an engine and might plug small oil passages, which is why I NEVER RECOMMENDED an additive that contained solids in suspension. The people I recommended Duralube to tried it, saw a difference, and continue to use it. Are you saying we are all nuts with super memories?
You may be very knowledgable in the oil field, but have you ever stepped out of the lab into the real world? Try the product in a car in real life and see if you don't see any differance. Then tell me I don't know what I am talking about.
Someone else on this thread basically said "You the Man" when it comes to oils. I will not stoop to your level to attack your credibilty or even your memory, but I will state that you can't know everything, I MUST know something. Having said that, the people I recommended Duralube to, and I will continue to use Duralube, which has NEVER harmed any of our engines, and continue to enjoy the IMAGINED benefits of the product.
Have a GREAT day!!:p :p :p

Yeow! I didn't realize that oil/oil additives was such a passionate topic!!!!

Oil additives and the dino vs synth debates, almost like, achem, "discussing" politics at the Thanksgiving dinner table with relatives!! :eek: ;)

another log onto the fire...
 

here's another all liquid additive made by a reputable company. they made their name with transmissions and now have their own engine protectant that allegedly outperforms duralube.

lubegard bio/tech engine protectant

Mr Meodip: Please accept my very sincere apology if my comments offended you. I never intended to attack anybody personnally with my intervention. All I wanted to do was to give facts, references to other facts expressed by other competent parties. I don't know if what field of work you're in, but I would presume you would be decently knowledgable of your specialty after spending 25 years in it like I did in the lubricant business.
You have the full right to your opinion, but please allow me to totally/professionnaly disagree.
If you ''feel'' better using this product, please keep on using it.
Nothing is better than a good feeling. (do we agree on this?)
JackD

Re: Any truth to PFTE aditives like Slick 50?
 

I bought my MR2 with 54K on it and used slick 50 twice, once at 80K and then again at about 140K, I stopped using it after that.

NP

Jack - apology accepted. Please forgive me if I do not put all my faith in professional opinions. Professionals told me that water and plastic are incompatable and water based adhesive products could never be made to lay smoothly in micro-thin layers on plastic without beading or breaking up unless a surficant was used to break the surface tension of the water. Unfortunately surficants also encapsulate the adhesive particles so they are no longer sticky. By being" outside the box" I invented a mechanical way of breaking the surface tension that I have been using in production for 4 years. Nobody else has accomplished this feat yet. I have 4 patents to my name because I did not listen to Academia. Careful observation has allowed me to accomplish these feats. Listening to the pros would have resulted in no new inventions. Technically you may be correct, by the book, but I see and hear a difference in engines with the Duralube. Your valued professional opinion says no, my experiences say yes. Maybe the external variables in my cases are such that improvement is there. Maybe the same variables are not present in lab tests. I don't know. So, once again, thank you for the kind apology, and for now we will amicably agree to disagree. Who knows - something in the future may change one of our opinions.
By the way - we are setting new records here in Manitoba - +5C today - Get ready - it is heading for Quebec!!!

We'll take that ''heat wave', with pleasure.
it was minus 23 deg. yestreday.
JackD

Normal temp for Dec 11 in Edmonton: -17C.

Today? +5C.

Global warming...

Geeez, I sure feel guilty living in Southern California.

This week, our average daily high temperature is between 69 - 71 degrees F (20 to 21 degrees C), and the average low at night is 41 to 45 degrees F (5 to 7 degrees C).

Aaaaaaah, yet another week in paradise....:D :p

Don't feel guilty - we're firing up the ol BBQ tonite!! 42F is a heatwave up here!!!:D :D :D

Jackd vs. moedip
 

Two fellow Canadians getting so publicly impassioned?

I'm marking the date on my calendar...:D

(as usual, of course, the outcome was polite and amicable). ;)

P.S. The heatwave has just reached us...it went from -15C last night to a positively hot +2C today. I think I'll fire up the BBQ as well...

Re: Jackd vs. moedip
 

Isn't that funny?

And so true. I travel to B.C. and Ontario on business several times throughout the year, and I always notice how polite and controlled Canadians seem to be.

Conflicting ideas and opinions have all contributed to build the world.

Pls keep blowing toward the East, we need the Heat wave.
jackD

It's too true! I rarely witness Canadians publicly rallying or speaking out. When we do though, it's full tilt.

The last time I saw it was when Canada won the men's gold for hockey in the past Olympics - remember? :D

When Sakic scored the last goal and the game ended, I opened my backyard door and yelled at the top of my lungs in joy. There were a couple of furtive, silent seconds where I heard nothing but the hum of traffic...but then...an answering yell came from somewhere down my street, and then another and another. The whole street was yelling. I smiled, closed the door and went back about my business. It was a great feeling. It's funny how sometimes banal events (like a hockey game) can transcend into something much bigger...;)

Although if you want to see us foaming at the mouth, just ask about the state of healthcare...:D

Health Care? Did you say Health Care? - add to that the $1 BILLION Dollars OVER BUDGET unapproved tax money being spent for the stupid gun registry and most Canadians haven't registered their guns anyway. Now you are talking PASSION!! The Feds want the Ontario Police to find the people who didn't register and charge them. Turning legitimate honorable gun owning Canucks into criminals. The gangsters bring in heavy duty guns from the States, and believe me "They don't need no stinkin' registration". Tax and spend without logic - If gun owners shot off their guns like Chretien shoots off his mouth without thinking - we'd be in real trouble. And as Chretien says The proof is the proof - show me the proof and I will know it is the proof when I see the proof so it will be the proof - or words to that effect - Want any more "proof?" I will end with the "typically apathetic Canadian" response ---- " YEAH, BUT WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT???" Ain't it the truth?
PS - How was that for passion????:D :D :D

lol...

Yeah, the whole gun registry thing is a waste of time. A billion dollars plus, all just to get the couple dozen or so Canadians who actually own guns (other than the BB or pellet variety) to register them...;)

Pellet and BB Guns???----SH-H-H-H-H--H - NOT SO LOUD - CHRETIEN MIGHT HEAR YOU AND START UP A JUNIOR REGISTRY FOR THEM!!

lol...nice one. Better hide my slingshot too then. ;)

Don't worry about the slingshot - anything with a velocity slower than his rantings is safe.

In that case, the pellet rifle is safe as well...;)

In that case, the pellet rifle is safe as well..
OK I'm man enough to admit I was wrong and you are right. But using your analogy - Howitzers should be safe too.

As I have a v--e--r--y slow 260E, does that mean I can skip registration????
But I'll have to register my Vette
And by the way, I think I'll try some duralube in my Benz and see if it makes it faster than the Vette.
JackD

LOL....LOL...LOL..

Jack, next time you are in So Cal, you better look me up! We think a lot alike.

And for all the Canadians here, a big hello!

My Father was born in a small town about 180 miles north of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, in 1914 and is alive and well. I was born in Santa Monica, California, "Thank"s Dad".

I have made many trips to Canada, family, friends, work, etc. I love it!

My fear is one day I may not return home.

Jack, what's up with the new cars running the 5-20 oil?

Oh Man, I feel at home here!

:)

Geeez, I sure feel guilty living in Southern California.
 

Wow this thread sure has evolved!

Let me futher lead us off topic-

I do enjoy the fine weather in LA but we shouldn't feel guilty! What about the traffic? What about the INSANE cost of housing? What about our soft economy (in LA realtively speaking)? What about the Parking NAZIs!?!?

I think it all evens out in the end.

Oh but we do have an exceptional used car market. But it's still not enough to make me feel guilty!

Regarding PTFE in oils
 

Being a chemical engineer and working for Mobil Oil, it is not possible for PTFE to bond to metal or any moving parts unless the temperature of the metal exceeds 800 degrees. Also, PTFE will not bond in presence of oil, needs to be generally oil free.
Take an example of teflon coated pans for instance, PTFE is bonded to the metal, when the metal is at elevated temperatures. These engines are way below that.
Also, have you tried to use metal spoon on a teflon pan? what do you think happens in an engine?
If your engine gets to that temperature, you engine shot.
So, where does this suspended particles of PTFE go, they are basiclaly fitered out, clogging up your oil filter.
So, folks this PTFE is a gimmick.
If you use conventional oil or synthetic, regular oil changes is all that needs to be done.
This is not my opinion but a fact.

Endeavor: Thanks for your support against additives.
Now if you could only try and convince my friend Moedip on the Duralube subject.
JackD