Request to members in Germany - Klann or SIR spring compressor - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

stevebfl · #16 04-14-2003, 02:09 PM

Before you make a real job of this, I must point out that there is no reason to deal with the spring. The shock will hold everything in place. If you doubt it just use the spring compressor as a back up.

You will have to fight the spring moving off to the side when fully held by the tool. This makes getting it started properly into its seat a bit of a problem. Properly used persuation makes short work of this but may take some effort to learn. Leave the spring in the seat take up some pressure if you like, but let it drop to the shock and support the car on the frame points.

MikeTangas · #17 04-14-2003, 07:26 PM

Steve,

It appears that the guide rod mount at the LCA cannot be removed with the spring seat and shock in place. Since I am going through the front end I plan on replacing these mounts as well, since the rubber has deteriorated.

Maybe I didn't cover that earlier. Maybe I'm missing a trick here. Let me take another look at the situation.

Larry Delor · #18 04-14-2003, 07:42 PM

I used a floorjack to lift up the lower control arm, in order to take the pressure of the nut that holds the upper arm. The floojack had a nice cup on it, that kept the lower arm from sliding off. I have used this method to replace lower balljoint, and upper control arm/balljoint.
I would trust a slippery looking bottle jack, like the one that Mike tried to use (glad to hear you are ok Mike), about as far as I could throw an OM617.

-Larry

stevebfl · #19 04-15-2003, 07:58 AM

Oh well I guess I don't get to keep any secrets. The caster joint (as I call it) becomes really simple with a small non MB tool. A porta power.

This is a hydraulic ram that is hand operated. The ram is placed on the lower control arm in the area of the lower ball joint and the other end rests on the frame in the rear (some where I don't really remember but where ever it's solid). A few pumps, and the removal of the vertical bolts, allows the small aluminum subframe (that houses the joint) to hang in space. Now just unscrew it from the strut rod.

Remove and replace the joint and install in reverse order. My best guy at this (he is not a fast tech just the one who does it the most) can do both sides in about 20 minutes, but he usualy takes an hour. It is one of the places we win at as we charge 3 hours. If you do it your way you will be lucky to do it in three hours (both sides).

We almost never release the spring. Replacement of the lower control arm or the forward strut arm bushings maybe (they are under the lower spring seat).

vince · #20 04-15-2003, 09:10 AM

Mike, since you are talking about removing the forward strut arm bushings and not the caster joint alone, you will run into the problem I had. Using the threaded rod & plate rig, the springs bent inward until they were hard up against the inside wall of the wheelhouse. As Steve says, with some force with the appropriate tool might force them back so you can get them back onto the seat on the LCA. I think it is easier on a lift (which Steve would have available) than it is for us guys working from jackstands. You might try forcing blocks of wood between the spring and the wheelhouse before you compress the springs so they will hold their position in line with the seat. I tried just about everything and finally swallowed my pride and went begging. With the KLANN compressor I had the springs in place on both sides within 20 minutes.

csnow · #21 04-15-2003, 10:01 AM

To Mike's issue.
As someone mentioned, the stand for this application should be the type that is designed to receive an old-fashioned tube axle, with a concave top. These are commonly available, and cheap.
The stand should be positioned as far out on the CA as possible.
Remember, you are trying to emulate the wheel. Therefore, the weight needs to be supported on the other side of the fulcrum (which is the spring mount, in this case). You may need to remove the wheel to get the stand far enough out before dropping the weight of the car onto it.

As a bonus, those with a 124 or 201 will find a more perfect 'slot' in the CA to receive the stand just inboard from the balljoint.

MikeTangas · #22 04-15-2003, 01:29 PM

Let's see. I plan on replacing the guide rod (track rod, caster rod...) mounts at both ends,so I will be dropping the bearing bracket. I don't have my pictures here at work, but looking closely I might be able to angle the foward bushing out with the shock removed and only one side still captured under the spring seat. If that is the case, I can let it wait until the new ball joints are in and the spindles reinstalled before removing the shocks. Time is not an issue...yet. I don't have a porta-power, but I do have a come-along.

Now for the jack stand picture. Everyone needs to realize I was not working on the car. I was testing whether the stand would/could slip as had been opined in a previous thread. The picture proves it can and did. The stand in question does have a saddle recess, that isn't seen in the angle of the shot, it's just not a deep saddle. The stand was placed intitially just outboard of the spring seat (granted not optimal, but as close as I could get it with the wheels on), then the car was lifted slightly from the opposite side (bear in mind I have seen cars bounce several inches in a good quake), that minor lift and a little movement allowed the stand to slip, coming to rest as pictured. I have never had a stand slip on me before, ever. Just a good reminder that everything is not as secure as it seems.

Everyone's help and concerns are appreciated. That's what I love about this site, there is something for everyone and plenty to learn.

Thomaspin · #23 04-15-2003, 02:13 PM

....for those of us residing in earthquake prone areas.

I am reminded that when the Northridge, CA quake struck (1985?), its epicenter was 2 miles from my home in the Encino hills of the San Fernando Valley and my 500 lb. BMW R90/6 motorbike jumped off its center stand and fell on its side - gas everywhere from a broken carb spigot. I was in San Diego at the time (2 am?) and the shock woke me up even 130 miles away, so solid supports tend to be on our minds!

P.S. WHERE are our German buddies? That's what started this.

dmorrison · #24 04-15-2003, 02:22 PM

Well, I have to chime in here. I of course have designed a coil dspring compressor that I was going to make. I was designing the concept after the Sir Tool/Klann plate system. The attached diagram is the design I came up with for the plate. I was going to have a 18 inch grade 8 bolt cut at a local shop here for $40. The problem I see is you have to insert a bolt from the top down to the plate that will be inserted through the spring coils and then capture this unit. You have to prevent the plate from slipping right or left. The squiggily lines on my photo represents the depression milled or ground into the plate. The 90 degree cuts will alow the plate to be inserted and then as the coil winding increases, the coil will bypass the plate, at the 90 degree cutout and raise up through the opening. The grove will help prevent the coil from moving. The fact that the disk is 5" in diameter prevents the plate from slipping through the coils and slip off the coil spring. Sort of the manhole cover idea. The manhole covers are round so they can't slip down the hole. Any other shape could slip down the hole.
You have to keep the spring as straight as you can. Even with the Sir tool I found that the coil would tilt at times. But it was controlled.
The opening in the disk will allow the bolt to slip into the opening and center in the disk. the bolt washer has 2 roll pins that will go into the holes drilled in the plate. This is to prevent the plate from rotating and driving itself up the coil spring.
The top washer would go over the top opening. I was going to again use grade 8 nuts, hopefully a 2" long nut to tighten the assembly. And some grease on the treads and the top hole washer. The top left item shows the 2 washers that would make the top washer. the smaller diameter woul dcenter the bolt in the top holeof the spring perch.
Additionally I woul dconsider welding some guides in the plate to prevent it from slipping off the coil and hold it steady in the center of the coil spring.
I was looking at pulling the spring into the top pearch and then releasing it . I was going to change the springs out. I feel this would have worked. But was concerned about the deadly compressed energy. I chose to buy the Sir tool.
Thomaspin has a wonderfull milling/lathe unit and I'm sure he could make on of these plates. Maybe he will give it a try.
The dimemsions are for the front springs only on the 123. The rear springs used the larger plate that came with the Sir Tool.
I can measure it if anyone wants it.
The rear spring. You would remove the shock or hydraulic shock and insert the plate at the top. The lenght of the rod may have to be different then the one for the front.
You would then screw the spring down to the trailing arm. Remove the arm and then you could release the spring for replacement or leave it attached while R+R the bushings.
I did find that with the Sir tool I still had to have the subframe bushing bolt released and the front subframe lowered about 4-5 inches to get the spring installed.
The Sir tool and maybe the Klann will compress only so far and you have only 5 coils to compress or you can't get the plates out once you release the tension. Therefor the spring is not compressed tightly as shown in the Mercedes service manual. A limitation of the Sir Tool.

Dave

csnow · #25 04-15-2003, 03:31 PM

Anyone think this device would work?

Thomaspin · #26 04-15-2003, 03:32 PM

....the slot in the plate allows you to thread it up to the top of the spring by rotating it aound the coils as you go up?

What sort of steel and what thickness would have to be used to make this safe?

Also, wouldn't the roll pins in the bolt washer have to be quite massive to resist any sideways force form the compressed spring?

I like the idea.

dmorrison · #27 04-15-2003, 05:46 PM

csnow

I looked at the hydraulic unit. It can only handle 1500 Lbs. And the compressed springs have more force than that. I;m afraid they would not be strong enough.

Thomaspin

Due to the opening in the springs as they are installed in the car. I was looking at making the thickness of the plate 3/8" thick.
would cut a groove in the plate to hold the spring. It could be a v groove or rounded. I would center the groove at 2" from center. Cut it 2/16" deep based on a 5/8th inch coil diameter.

The bolt would slip down through the spring perch hole and you would slid the plate over the bolt shaft to catch the plate on the bolt head. You have to prevent the plate from rotating. Sir tool does this by mlling the bolt head shape into the plate. See the bottom plate on the photo. You could do this on your machine.
As you look at the photo you can see that the plate grooves are much larger than I was considering. You could make the groove wider but I would not consider making it deeper. You'll effect the strenght of the plate structure.
If you could find stronger metal than plate steel, stainless would be better. stronger would be best. The strength shold be fine.
I wanted the grade 8 bolt for tread strength.
Roll pin
The hole in the bottom plate would be ever so slightly larger than the bolt shaft. The washer with roll pins could not be larger that the hole at the top of spring perch. That measurement in the 123 is 1 3/4 " So I figures 1 5/8 diameter. Once the bolt and washer engages the plate you need to hold it in the center of the plate, that is what the roll pins are for. The roll pins will also stop the washer/bolt assembly from rotating on the plate.
Having the mill/lathe unit you could build a washer with slots to match the bolt head. Just as Sir tool did. This would hold the plate against the bolt head. Or the washer could be welded to the bolt.
As you tighten the nut at the top of the spring perch to compress the coil spring. You don't want the plate/bolt assembly to rotate or it will screw the plate up the coils of the spring.
So the top washer should allow the nut to rotate, the grease idea, but the washer should remain stationary. Just now I realize you could weld a handle onto the top washer to hold the unit. One hand holds the washer handle and the other works the ratchet on the nut. Ideally the ratchet would be a box wrench rachet. Since in this design the bolt would be raising up through the washer/bolt assembly.

How strong a metal can you cut on your lathe/milling machine. That may determine what you would make the plate out of. As stated I would use a grade 8 bolt. I can give you the name of the company here that can make it. Its a $40 set up fee and probably a few bucks for the bolt stock. They can make it as long as you want, up tp 36" I think.
If you want me to email you a copy of the plans I made let me know. If I had your lathe/mill I would have made the tool.

Dave

Thomaspin · #28 04-15-2003, 05:54 PM

...is pretty poncy - struggles with big stuff on stainless.

dmorrison · #29 04-15-2003, 06:30 PM

An alternate coil spring compressor.
Check the opening of the hole at the top of the spring perch.
Mine is 1 3/4 inch in size in the 123. I looked at this tool and felt that it would work except the lower ball nut. It was to large for the opening I have in the 123 ( we would be using it upside down in the Mercedes). Measure your hole and if its greater than 1 15/16" I would check out this unit. You have to have the lower ball nut fit through the spring perch opening.

http://www.handsontools.com/store/show_product/?product_id=1973

Well I just took a break and measured the 300SDL spring perch opening. It was 2.5 inches. This tool may very well work. The only consideration is the outside diameter of the plate versus the out side diameter of the spring in the 126 series.
Additionally this would not work on ALL mercedes as the Klann and Sir Tool does. Due to the size of the spring perch opening. However you may be able to use a plate of steel on the 123 spring and just pull the spring up into the perch
The OTC plate is 5 1/4 inches maximum by 3 1/2 inches. It is oval. The springs on the 126 body are 5 inch in diameter. So it will work on the 126. The rear springs I don't know. Its raining outside and I don't want to climb under a wet car to measure the rear springs.
The 123 springs are 4.5" front (overall outer diameter)and 5.5" rear. I had to use the large Sir tool plate for the rears. The Sir tool plates are approximately 5 inches (small) and 6 inches (large)

Soooo!! this OTC tool may work. Please don't go out and buy it and find out that it doesn't work, and then blame me.
Take measurements of the tool and your car suspension and see if it will work

Well I have reviewed my notes on this tool and as far as I can tell on the 126, this tool WILL work in concept on the front springs. The center piece of the plate has a hub that is measured 3 1/2 inches, look at the bottom plate in the photo. Will this fit inside the spring coils???? Someone needs to get an acurate measurement of the inside on the coil spring for a 126. It may work, But no garrantees.

When you look at the photo you see the plate is oval shaped. The large dimension is 5 1/4 " The narrow dimension is 3 3/4"
the bottom plate shows a center hub. this is to center the plate and to prevent the plate from slipping to one side or the other. that hub is 3 1/2 inches ( I think someone needs to check that dimension if thinking of this tool).
HERES THE ASSUMPTION. The 123 and 126 shop manual call for the same rear spring compressor. Therefore the springs probably have the same total outside diameter. ASSUMING THIS. When I measure the 123 rear spring I realize that the plate will fit safely into the spring and can be used. Now does the lower ball nut on the compressor fit through the trailing arm opening where the shock attaches.??? I don't know.
If the nut will fit through the trailing arm opening then it will work on the rear of the 126. You may have to place the bottom plate on the outside of the trailing arm, if it doesn't and tighten it to remove the trailing arm then R+R the new spring.

The dimemsions of the 123 rear spring for comparison.
overall diameter 5 3/8"
inner coil spring diameter 3 3/4 "
center of coil to center of coil 4 3/4"
coil diameter 5/8"
I used inches because its easier.

Again this may only work on the 126 and not any others. I don't know the dimensions of the other Mercedes models.

Dave

afmcorp · #30 04-15-2003, 08:07 PM

hi folks

let me ask 1 question here.

is this spring compressor you've been talking about capable of doing both the front and back springs and work on a 126?

i want to change my springs front and rear with the sport springs.
tks
craig