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  #1  
Old 11-04-2003, 01:51 AM
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Just replace the head gasket or do the lot?

My brother reports that his 1992 180E (low spec Oz version of 190E-1.8, ie 1.8 litre M102) has some oil starting to appear in the coolant. Obviously it's head gasket time.

He has considered the possibility of doing the work himself and I have offered to help since he is not confident to do it alone. I am comfortable doing this as I have done others including my M103 300TE.

The problem is that he lives 300km away (about 3.5 hours driving each way). Obviously it would be preferable for me if we could complete the job in one day. If we elected to simply remove the head and fit a new gasket this would be possible. If we decided to send the head to a machine shop I would have to make a second trip for the reinstallation of the head. Normally I would take this latter approach except for the fact that the car has travelled only 90,000km (56,000 miles). I don't think it has ever overheated. I purchased it at just 24,000km almost six years ago with full service history. Shortly after I sold it to my father who drove it for a few years to about 70,000km. My brother has owned it since.

With its low mileage and known history I would be surprised if the head and valves required any machining. Possibly a set of valve stem seals wouldn't hurt although it probably doesn't really need these either.

What opinions do others have? Should we lift the head, check it with a straight edge to make sure it is OK and simply reinstall with a new head gasket? Should we also do the valve stem seals? Or should we send the head to a machine shop for the full treatment?

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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2003, 03:10 AM
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Location: Belgium,Europ
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Dear Greg,

I certainly don't want to discourage you but after reading your
thread, some questions rose to me.
If the headgasket is leaking : why did it start leaking. I agree it could be leaking by "fatigue" but there could be numerous other reasons ( a warped head for instance, justifying a remachining ).
And what when it is NOT the gasket but a small crack in the head?
A new gasket will not cure that. You will have to start all over again! please untherstand that I am a 603 turbo owner with an overhauld (cylinder) head so I am very suspicious !
Last but not the least : I never heard of an aluminum head opened up and put back without being regrinded and not leaking afterwards!
I understand you don't expect much damage with that low mileage but it is this mileage that makes me wondering...?
Just one hell of advice : don't put yourself ( and your brother )
under pressure in advance by placing such a short " deadline"!
If you do mind that distance : why don't you preview some holiday at your brothers place ? Could be fun !
In anyway, whatever you decide : keep us informed about your findings and experiences !
Good luck !
Danny
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2003, 08:46 AM
I told you so!
 
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Ditto to what Danny said. This is a job you don't want to do twice. Do it once and do it right.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2003, 09:28 AM
Bud
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The head on my low mileage '91 300E was removed, checked and found to have no problems. The head gasket leaked despite annual MB/distilled water coolant changes, Mobil 1 since the 1,200 mile mark and never any overheating. This engine never had tap water in it until the dealer used it to flush out the oil in the cooling system.

I'm not suggesting that the head shouldn't be checked but it doesn't take much to have a head gasket leak on the M103 and I'll bet most of the time the head isn't warped.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2003, 05:58 PM
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Thanks for all the replies.

I'm not so concerned as to why my brother's 180E head gasket started leaking. It is fairly well known that head gaskets on M102, 103 and 104 engines do just start leaking for no obvious reason. It seems to be more age related than mileage related. On my 300TE it was leaking due to corrosion of the gasket around the water passages. I suspect the gasket may even work as a sacrificial anode since there was no corrosion elsewhere. In that instance I had the head skimmed since I knew less of the history of the car and it had travelled greater distance. The six is also longer with greater potential for the head not being flat. In that instance it was only about 0.007" off flat anyway (from memory).

I am simpy suggesting that on the shorter M102 head with such low mileage that has not been abused that we might get away without skimming the head and that there should be no cracks or corrosion to the head. I would check it with a good straight edge to be sure that it is flat.

Skimming heads also raises an interesting issue with OHC engines. If a head is skimmed to bring it back to flat after warping then presumably the camshaft bearings no longer align causing excess load on the camshaft and wear in the bearings. Would it not be preferable to have a slighty warped head pulled down flat with the head bolts than have it machined such that the camsaft bearings no longer align? Just food for thought.

Again, thanks for the replies, and for anyone else that has some ideas I'm appreciative of suggestions, especially from those with experience with the M102. Any techs want to say something regarding any of this?

PS
I have just found out that the water pump is leaking on my father's '93 E320 Coupe (his replacement for the 180E when it went to my brother). Guess who he is hoping will fix it for him? I think I'd rather do the head gasket on the M102 than the water pump on the M104 3.2! I'm dreading when the day comes when my father tells me that the E320 has oil in its coolant. This is sure to happen eventually, it already appears to have the tell-tale oil leak at the rear of the motor.
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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.

Last edited by Greg in Oz; 11-04-2003 at 06:14 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2003, 06:29 PM
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Does the car have auto or manual transmission? If its an auto it's worth checking that the oil is not from a leaking heat exchanger in the radiator - they do fail. A check of the trans fluid will confirm. Any sign of milkiness on the dipstick is bad news.

Adrian
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90 300TE 24v (M104 eng) 207K miles
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86 300TE (M103 eng) 230K+ miles (donor car)
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  #7  
Old 11-04-2003, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adrianruk
Does the car have auto or manual transmission? If its an auto it's worth checking that the oil is not from a leaking heat exchanger in the radiator - they do fail. A check of the trans fluid will confirm. Any sign of milkiness on the dipstick is bad news.

Adrian
Adrian,

I can appreciate what you are saying re auto tranny fluid leaking into the radiator but no chance on this one. It has a 5-speed manual tranny. This and its low mileage were the reasons I originally purchased it. I don't think a 180E (190E-1.8) with an auto would be real impressive in the performance department! Its lack of performance was why I didn't keep it for long.

Thanks,
Greg
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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2003, 01:47 AM
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Greg

the answer is: Have him take apart everything to get the head off. Supply support, advice, send him tools and have frequent phone calls. Have him check this site for how to's.

Tell him to take the head to a shop that can test and measure it. If it needs something, do it.

THEN- go down there and help him install it. That is the critical phase where expertise and experience will make the difference.

BTW, tell him to bag and sort the parts as they come off.

Haasman
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2003, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Skimming heads also raises an interesting issue with OHC engines. If a head is skimmed to bring it back to flat after warping then presumably the camshaft bearings no longer align causing excess load on the camshaft and wear in the bearings. Would it not be preferable to have a slighty warped head pulled down flat with the head bolts than have it machined such that the camsaft bearings no longer align? Just food for thought.
As others have said.
I would definetely check the head for cracks, valve seating quaility, and surface flatness/condition.

Surfacing a warped OHC head can be a problem. A head doesn't typically warp under normal operating conditions though, so if it is then more work needs to be done to the head.
Some machine shops have the capability to straighten warped heads so that the cam bore alignment will not be a problem.

Even if it isn't warped end to end, there could be a good bit of distortion across the head at various places, such as between each combustion chamber or between bolts.

Most likely it is off to some degree, and simply replacing the head gasket without proper testing / checking, could mean going back into it in the near future.

BMJR
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2003, 06:30 PM
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Thanks everyone,

I guess you have talked us into not trying to cut corners. Haasman, your suggestion to have him pull it apart might be worthy of consideration.
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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.
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  #11  
Old 11-09-2003, 06:43 PM
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If the head is warped enough to allow oil to mix with coolant, then surely the cam has excessive load on it before you remove the head. If you then machined the head to flat and refitted it, you'd simply have the same amount of load on the cam as before. Or not?
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  #12  
Old 11-09-2003, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AF300E
If the head is warped enough to allow oil to mix with coolant, then surely the cam has excessive load on it before you remove the head. If you then machined the head to flat and refitted it, you'd simply have the same amount of load on the cam as before. Or not?
My experience with M102 & M103 head gasket failures has been that they fail due to corrosion or breakdown of the gasket (between oil and coolant passages) rather than warped heads.
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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.
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  #13  
Old 11-09-2003, 08:19 PM
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Don't Mention the War!
 
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Yes, I agree with you in that sense, but say that the head was warped.......
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  #14  
Old 01-22-2004, 01:36 AM
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180E head gasket update

Finally after much deciding whether to pay for a workshop to do his M102 head gasket job or for me to go and help him, my brother has accepted my offer (now that the cooling system is probably thoroughly oiled up!).

I will go and help him remove the head this weekend and then take the head to the shop that did our M103 head. When it's finished I will take it back to my brother's place and help him put it all back together again. It looks like my 190E is in for a couple of weekends of long drives. I would have been tempted to take our 300TE since my 190E lacks cruise control except the cruise on the 300TE has just started playing up. Just another job to do!

I remember reading in one of my workshop manuals how to de-oil the cooling system. I will have to try and find that again. Does anyone remember the right stuff to use for this or have their own ideas? I suspect this one may need a good clean out. When the M103 needed doing I caught it early and it only had a small amount of oil in the coolant reservoir which I was able to clean out with degreaser. Obviously I replaced all the hoses to prevent any future oil induced failures there.

Anyway, I will report back with anything interesting and the outcome.
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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.
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  #15  
Old 01-22-2004, 06:49 AM
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Some interesting comments in the following thread by 3 pro techs:

Head gasket Leakage

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