Fram oil filters, junk or not?
 

Personally I think Fram oil filters, at least for gasoline cars, are junk. Especially when compared to a Purulator, WIX, or Mann etc. Yet, when I am "dreaming shopping" on E--bay and lookng at Ferraris I constantly see the infamous orange Fram filter on the engines. Just about every Ferrari 400i, V-12 you see has 2 oil filters and they are both Fram. Is there something I am missing here, does Fram actually sell a quality filter? I find it hard to believe that Ferrari owners would risk their engines to a poor oil filter.

Dear rickjordan:

I do not think Fram oil filters are junk at all. You cannot judge an oil filter brand based on its external appearance (especially spin-on type filters found on virtually on Japanese cars). The important part of a filter is still the filter element inside.

Fram (and Pennzoil) oil filters for Japanese cars are especially cheap ($2-$3 each). My friends and I have used Fram oil (and air) filters on old Japanese cars for a long time without any problem. I even have a friend who has a 1984 Honda Civic with 348 Kmiles (original engine and auto transmission!) and it has just even passed the new California Smog Check II with flying colors! And guess what? He's the type of person who would never spend time to open his car's hood to check for anything. All he has ever done was to buy a Fram oil filter at Kragen at every 5000 Kmiles interval, then bring it to an oil change place and have it change the oil for $11.

He had his car's timing belt and water pump replaced at 160 Kmiles!, and ATF fluid change at 210Kmiles.

I am well aware of the fact that Fram oil/air filters are manufactured anywhere in the world, including India, Turkey, South Korea, Phillippines etc..., but it does not mean that they are bad.

Eric

Eric

Do a Google search on Filter Test.

Here's a link to one interesting site that takes filters apart. Note that there are more than one grade of Fram filters. Fram filters appear to be cheaply made (you don't get what you don't pay for).

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html#fram

There is also a description of the differences between the Bosch filter made by Champion and the German made Mann which looked to me to be the same from the outside.

Also note that the filter made by Champion for Mobil 1 is of very high quality and might be a good filter for extended drain situations.

Hi,

Bad reputation is due to the fact that most (if not all) their filters (spin on type) have PLASTIC anti-drain back valve that could leak resulting in lack of lubrication upon startup (rattle for few seconds till filter is filled up); and this is definitely no good for engines, IMHO.

Frank.

Funny, I would never put a WIX on my car. My family has used Fram for 30 years and never had a single problem. I have extended family and friends who swear by Fram.

This car is the first car I have not used a Fram for. If they made one for it, I might consider it. At least I can still use Castrol GTX 20w-50.:)

Sorry, didn't mean to upset people. I once cut open a Fram filter and the "spring" that held the filter portion inplace was nothing more than a piece of pressed aluminum. The filter element had thin cardboard ends to it, whereas the WIX had actual metal end caps to the filter element, and the spring was an actual coil spring. Again, maybe they have better filters in their line, but the ones I saw were cheaply made. The center of the filter had only 30 holes in it for oil to pass through, versus the 60 or so in the WIX. It just seemed that OEM filters, Purulators, etc. were beefier. I just assumed all Frams were made this way since they only cost $3 ("you get what you pay for"). To see them on Ferraris seemed odd. Again, didn't mean to start an oil filter debate, which is probably a first.

Aye. "Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war!!!"
Shakespeare's Mark Antony

A $100 million advertising campaign doesn't make for a good filter.

I agree, but seeing Fram filters on Ferrari engines says alot. Though, the one thing I noticed the Ferraris that usually have the Fram filters are older models like the Daytona. I wonder if the owners were using those to maintain the original look of the engine.

Well,
when you need an oilfilter, you'll go to a shop to buy one...
So, you"ll buy what's available...that's why you see Fram-filters on Ferrari-
engines...
I owned once a Russian car with a French Diesel engine ( an Indenor XDP-90), the French equivalent of a MB Diesel at that time and as good as that! I drove it 4 years, put 172.000 km on the counter and one key on the engine : a 17 mm for the drain plug. I replaced the oil every 5000 km as I did the oilfilter. The brand of the filter was a Fram...so I am not taking part of ...IMHO...

Danny

I think that there is just some lack of knowledge thanks to Fram's reputation. Here is a summary from the above link that I think says it all: (my bolding)

******************************
Fram Extra Guard
Years ago Fram was a quality filter manufacturer. Now their standard filter (the radioactive-orange cans) is one of the worst out there. It features cardboard end caps for the filter element that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals against the cardboard and frequently leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak all the time. The stamped-metal threaded end is weakly constructed and it has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow. I had one of these filters fail in my previous car. The filter element collapsed and bits of filter and glue were circuilating through my system. The oil passge to the head became blocked and the head got so hot from oil starvation that it actually melted the vacuum lines connected to it as well as the wires near it.

Fram Double Guard
Another bad filter idea brought to you by your friends at Fram. The filter itself is a slightly improved design over the Fram Extra Guard, but still uses the same filter element. It has a silicone anti-drainback valve, a quality pressure releif valve, and enough inlet holes for good flow. The big problem is that they are trying to cash in on the Slick 50 craze. They impregnate the filter element with bits of Teflon like that found in Slick 50. As with Slick 50, Teflon is a solid and does not belong in an engine. It cannot get into the parts of the engine that oil can and therefore does nothing. Also, as the filter gets dirty, it ends up filtering the Teflon right out. Dupont (the manufacturer of Teflon) does not recommend Teflon for use in internal combustion engines. Please do not waste your money on this filter.

*****************************************

Juyst because you see a filter on some guy's Ferrari means nothing. Of course, the funny part is that he probably paid $40 for it...

If I remember correctly, there was a post on the Allpar web site that mentioned there was an internal Daimler-Chrysler memo that banned the use of Fram oil filters in the testing facilities because they found some contaminant debris in an engine that was purportedly traced back to the oil filter.

I purchased an oil filter for my step-sons 2002 Honda Civic the other day. Bought it at a Honda dealership. Always liked the Honda filters.

Got home and read the fine print.

Made by Fram.

They most likely have multiple mfg. facilities. The radioactive orange Wal-Mart variety and the Honda dealer filter were likely made in different plants unless Honda has suddenly developed a death wish for continued success.

Well, the only two car makers that recommend 5W-20 oil are Ford and Honda!

It appears that Honda (like Ford) are now more interested in CAFE averages than in long term reliability.

At least Toyota offers 10W-40 oil at their dealerships.

Hey, people do all kinds of stupid things. Just because someone owns a Ferrari, doesn't mean he's intelligent. (Maybe he earned his money the old-fashioned way -- he inherited it!)

In any comparison tests I've seen, Fram filters always rank dead last. I wouldn't put a Fram filter on my lawn mower! And as for my MB, I would keep the USED Knecht on the car before I would install a NEW Fram.

Just my 2-cents -- arguably worth that.

Jeff Pierce

My neighbor was able to pick up a very low mileage Lexus from a Dot.Com Exec. The P.O. did his own maintenance and treated his cars with TLC including Mobil 1.

The first thing my neighbor did was take the new car to Walmarts to have it serviced. It now sports a Fram filter.

It's enough to make a grown man cry! I simply do not understand why people would spend tens of thousands of dollars for a car and then worry about saving $2 on a filter or complain about having to use premium fuel.

Honda oil filters made by FRAM
 

I have a 2003 Honda CR-V where I use to take it to the Honda dealer every 5,000 miles for an oil change. I discovered that Honda oil filters are made in Canada by FRAM. Since then I take my vehicle to a Valvoline Instant Oil Change location where their oil filters are made by Purolator.

I recently bought a Wix oil filter for my car, from one of the big-name parts chains. I bought it because inside the box, the filter itself was labelled MANN, made in Germany.

Sorry to say, but no Fram filters will ever go in my car.

I had completely forgot that I started this thread. Anyways, The Fram filters that I use to buy were junk, compared to a WIX or Purolator. These other 2 brands were substantially (sp) heavier. As I probably mentioned before, the Fram that I cut open had a piece of aluminum as a spring inside. Whereas the WIX had an actual coil spring and there were twice as many holes inside to let oil flow.

yeah
 

i bet ferraris had frams from the factory. and back then they were good (presumably).

i have often looked for frams for my mb thinking that they were good. i always liked the look of the orange filters. prob from seeing them on ferraris. i have never found a fram for mb.

sooooo how 'bout stp? they any good? i have one on my 350sdl right now.

tom w

You probably wont find a Fram for an MB. MB's use element filters that go inside of a housing, not a screw-on type.

moparmike;
Some do, some don't. My 1990 300E M103 uses spin-on, always has. So do other models.

I can get a WIX filter @ O'Reilly's Auto Parts for $8.99, STP @ the other chain is $13.99 and I always thought STP was their cheap brand. To be fair, I wonder who really makes this stuff, perhaps they all come from the same factory, just different packaging. I do like WIX though, they used to make NAPA Gold high-line store brand products, maybe still do.

I stand corrected. Wouldn't have thought an MB would do that before the accountants took over though...:confused:

I recently went to Wallmart to purchase a filter for my Ford Truck. At the time all they had in stock for the F-150 was 2 versions of Fram. The first was a normal service garanteed for 3000 miles the second was an extended service gauranteed for 7000 miles. Since my truck came with a recomended service interval of 7500 miles I decided that Fram is a POS. I bought the 7000 mile one anyway because I was there. I also bought a Fram for my 560SL only because I had the oil drained and that is all I could find locally. The problem I found with the SL filter was that it did not come with any of the required canister seals or drian plug seal so I ended up using the old ones over. The next time I will have either a Heingst or MANN in stock.


John Roncallo

Orange Kiss of Death
 

That's what the Volvo forum calls Fram filters.

I have found Mann or Knect to be the best. I tried Bosch but oil dripped all over when I unscrewed the filter leading me to believe that the filted does not have the anti-drain back valve. Filters without the anti-drainback valve could lead to dry starts and shorter engine life.

[QUOTE=t walgamuth]i bet ferraris had frams from the factory. and back then they were good (presumably).

i have often looked for frams for my mb thinking that they were good. i always liked the look of the orange filters. prob from seeing them on ferraris. i have never found a fram for mb.

sooooo how 'bout stp? they any good? i have one on my 350sdl right now.

tom w[/QUOTE

Ferrari with a Fram or a FIAMM?
I don't know of any Ferrari that came from the factory with a Fram, I could be wrong, but I think FIAMM is what is being mistaken with Fram.

fram
 

the older ferraris with two standing up proud above the front of the motor. fiamm makes filters?

i am thinking that ferrari had a deal with fram for money paid to them if they used fram filters. they had such a deal with goodyear(?) i think on the tires. may have been another brand. i am thinking sixties and perhaps seventies.

i remember reading about some ferrari guys losing races cause the factory had a deal for the tires and were obligated to run such and such a brand cause the old man was getting money to put them on the cars.

i think maybe they also used die hard batterys for a while too. not sure.

tom w

I have always used Fram filters for our Honda cars but run OEM in all the Benz and the Honda 450R (which gets changed about every 15 hours with Shell Rotella synthetic). The CRV is at 180k miles and I don't see where the Fram filter has caused it any harm but I have not been in the engine yet either;).

I think if you see a Ferrari engine with a White filter, it is a FIAMM. However, I see alot of V-12 Ferrari engines on E-bay with 2 distinctive orange filters sitting upfront of the engine. I just looked through some books I have on Ferrari. They show the building of the mid 80's Testarossa, the 512TR, and the F40. The Testarossa had a Black filter (possibly Mahle), the 512TR had a white filter and F40 had a blue filter.
I just know this, OEM filters are beefier than Frams, so I will stick with what the manufacturer used from the get-go.
When I bought my 911, the oil filter was OEM, it said Porsche on it. However, it also said made in the USA. I replaced that with a Mahle, made in Austria.

i checked a ferrari
 

drivers document that was written by james a riff with maintenance tips that appears to be from maybe around 1970. he states that the factory supplied fram filters but sears offered a good filter that worked for less money. and suggested painting the sears filter flat black if you dont want people making fun of you for using off brand products.

the information available for early ferraris is pretty sketchy, back then and now. much of the very simple things just arent available.

for example, head bold torque. not available. back in the fifties all the italian mechanics just trusted their arms. a ferrari 250 head even has head bolts that can't be reached with a torque wrench.

tom w

I looked at the Fram cartridge-type filter for my 450SL at the auto store the other day. It is made in India, and it has some sort of paper(?) wrap around the element, and it is SEWN together!!!

The Carquest (Wix) filter I previously purchased has a steel wrap around the filter element. I didn't look for a manufacturer's mark, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was made by Mann or similar.

Go figure... :silly:

I wouldn't put a Fram filter in a MB. What are these things Yugo's use good parts. I have an STP filter in the SD because if it blows I couldn't give a crap.

The SDL gets OE MB filters, as will any future MB I care about.

I used to run an OE oil filter on my Camry because it was $1 cheaper then the oil filters Autozone sold.

I once called Wix to ask them questions about their filters, and we got on a discussion about the filter industry in general (the guy I talked to was fantastic, in terms of good information).

He said that Wix, Baldwin, Donaldson, Racor, and FleetGuard all regularly buy filters from one another and rebox them. It boils down to supply, patents, and cost.

1) If one filter company has a low supply on hand, they'll buy their competitor's filters and rebox them so they can keep their customers happy.

2) Some filters are patented and the other manufacturers have to buy from the ones with the patents.

3) Sometimes it's just more cost-effective to buy from your competitor than retool the line for a low-selling filter.

They all exchange filters with each other - I then called Baldwin and FleetGuard, and they admitted the same thing about the industry.

Here's the relevant part; both Wix and FleetGuard said they will not exchange filters with Fram because they don't meet or exceed OE specs across the line like the top filter companies do.

On a personal note, I get Wix filters from www.fleetfilter.com - I've always liked Wix.

We went through this in great detail over in the DD forum. To bad the thread was deleted.

Take the 603 stuck in the W126 for example, all of the oil filters for that car seem to come from one maybe two factories.

Approximately how much do the OE MB filters cost from the dealer? If I went with something other than an MB filter, what should I go with? I need to change the oil in my car ASAP, but cannot get to the dealer until next Tuesday! Anything I can use until next change when I get a MB filter?

The car is a 1985 380SE and really unsure about what brand of filter would be best for this automobile, with 263K. I have heard a lot of different suggestions for oil brand/weight, so still in the dark about that as well. Also, how many quarts of oil does this car take? I do not have a manual yet (on the way), so as you can see, I am "dumb" about all of this for this car. :)

Thanks

Click on the Fastlane tab at the top of the page. Get a Mann, Henst or Knecht/Mahle.

Len

Clarification of details from an old codger who thinks he remembers correctly.
 

Ferraris from about 1959 through the early '70s came with two filters, usually Fram, but from a plant in Italy. On one side of the front of the motor was the PH2804, a full flow filter which was a higher pressure rated version of the same dimensions as the usual Chevrolet filter of the era, PH14, I think; my classic Lancia Fulvia took the same filter and a lot of owners of both brands had no trouble with the regular GM model filter. The other filter was a by-pass filter which filtered all the oil which was released by the pressure relief valve as it headed back to the pan rather than going through the bearings; this was a Fram PB50, same filter as specified for 1958 AMC Rambler sixes and a number of early '60s FIATs before they switched from by-pass to full-flow filtration.

Because of the differences in design between the full-flow and bypass filters, reversing their positions by mistake could cause serious problems.

Anouther cheap filter symptom?
 

I am still working on getting the baby benz on the road and noticed yet anouther issue that may be filter related and want to see what you guys think. I have changed the oil to mobil 1 15w50 but did not take time to go to the dealer for the filter, not sure now what brand it was, not fram but not oe or purolater wix etc. The car had been sitting for 2 weeks and the temp is down in the 40's on start up the engine was clattering like a lifter wasn't pumped up or maybe the chain tensioner? Oil pressure was at three bars, I tapped the throttle and it instantly quieted down. My normal oil pressure is three bars at cold idle and 2 to 2.5 at hot idle, three bars always when above idle. any thoughts on this? by the way I have ordered 4 mann filters and will change it out when they come in.

That doesn't sound like it was related to the filter. My guess is, due to the combination of not running for 2 weeks, cool temperatures, and thicker oil; it took a little longer for the oil to get to the lifters. I wouldn't worry, but I would use the Mann filters next time.

Thanks. I went there, but could not find any oil filters.

You mean these?
http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/mercedesshop/sophio/wizard.jsp?partner=mercedesshop&clientid=catalog.mercedesshop&baseurl=http://catalog.peachparts.com/&cookieid=1FU1CD1PL1OO18IQAF&year=1986&make=MB&model=560-SEL-001&category=A&part=Oil+Filter+Kit

Thanks. Yes, those filters, but for a 85' 380SE. I found those too by changing vehicle. I really need to change my user name.

According to that, the filter on my car is the "canister" type. The old filter comes out and a new one goes back in the housing? When I checked this auto parts site, it shows this type of "Bosch" filter:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=BOS&mfrpartnumber=72140&parttype=1&ptset=A

Can I just use this Bosch filter on my car, or are the photos misleading, as I know they can be on these sites.

Thanks!

86560SEL,

Your 380SE has the same engine as my 380 SL. Use a MANN, Hengst, or Mahle oil filter. It is a canister type filter. Essentially it is just the filtering element. The filter is located on the passenger side of the engine, in front, towards the bottom. There is a nut in the center, I think 15mm. This holds the cover on. The nut is on the bottom of the cover, so you are basicly lowering the cover as you lossen the nut.
These engines take 8.5 qts of oil. As for what weight oil to use, I will tell you what the owner's manual says, as ALL owner's manuals say. It is based on anticipated outside temps. 15W-40/15W-50 is is to be used for temps. all the way down to 5 degs. If you expect to be driving it in temps lower than 5, then put 10W-40 in, that is good down to 4 below 0. If the temp. never gets below 32, then use either the fore mentioned 15W-40, or 20W-50.
As for what brand, this is where things get ugly, as everyone has an opinion as to which is best. In my Benzes, I use either Chevron Delo 400 15W-40 (Walmart $6.72 a gallon) or Mobil Delvac 1300 15W-40. For my Porsche, in the cooler months 15W-40, in the warmer months, Kendal 20W-50.

Thanks very much Rick for that detailed information. I was really in the dark as what to do, as this is my first "driveable" Mercedes and I just bought this car and know nothing about it. I have an owners manual on the way.

Can those filters be bought at a local autoparts store? I will check the dealer to see what they have them for.

As far as the oil weight goes, it does not get that cold here. I am in northeast Tennessee, where it rarely drops below 20*. Normal "coldest" low in mid January is 25*. Typically in the 40s here for highs in the winter and mid 80s to lower 90s in the summer, with lows in the upper 60s and lower 70s. I think that 15W-40 would be good then.

What about synthetic oils? If it has never been used, should I switch over, or if I use it, can I switch back to regular oil? My car has 263K and as far as I can tell, no leaks. The PO said it did NOT burn oil and I have not noticed it ever smoking, even on first startup. I just want to put in a good oil that will protect my engine for a long time. (Thats a dumb statement- who don't?:D)

Would you happen to know the size of the bolt on the oil pan?

Thanks again!

As for the filters, I doubt you can get them at Pep Boys, or Auto Zone etc. Just go to the top of the screen, click on Fastlane and look your car up. You will find a Hengst filter for $6.39. This filter will come with a new seal for the drain plug.
Now as for the drain plug size, I believe it's 19mm I don't remember. I do know it's huge compared to the 13mm drainplugs on my diesels.
Now as for the whole synthetic vs. dino. oil goes. I don't think that anyone has documentation of how much longer an engine will last using syn. vs. conventional. Just change the oil religously.
Now, since my 911 is solely dependant on oil (ok, air too) to keep it cool and lubricated, I think what Porsche has to say in the owner's manual speaks volumes about oil types and weights. The owner's manual for my Porsche does not state a different oil change interval for synthetic, vs. dino oil. It also says at the top of the oil chart page that the recommended weights are based on temps, regardless of the make up of the oil. I think that if synthetic oil made that much of a difference, one it would of been factory fill at the time. The factory fill was Shell 15W-40 BTW. Two, there would be 2 seperate charts and change intervals listed for the 2 types of oil.
Simply put, syn. cost at least twice as much as convential oil. Now, will your engine last at least twice as long? There are people who put 350,000 miles on a MB V-8 using reg. oil. So, would using syn. make that go at least 700,000 miles, I don't think so.

Ok. Thanks! When you said "factory fill" was Shell 15W-40, were you referring to Mercedes or Porsche?

Thanks

I am sorry, the factory fill remark was for the Porsche.

so the 15w40
 

that comes in porsches, is it rotella?

tom w

If it's 15w40, it's Rotella. And that's what's going in my 450SL next oil change.