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  #1  
Old 07-12-2000, 10:41 PM
AV AV is offline
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Location: Toronto,Ontario
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Could someone let me know if R409 is compatible with the Benz system?
R12 is not available in Canada and this is supposed to be the replacemant.
Thanks
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  #2  
Old 07-12-2000, 11:04 PM
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: Toronto,On,Canada
Posts: 280
Had R406a charge last yr,all leaked out after 2 weeks.Coincidence?
Better get the real stuff?

------------------
Tom 1992 300E 2.6
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  #3  
Old 07-13-2000, 03:02 AM
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Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Los Angeles, Calif, USA
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R406A and R409A contain R22 which is bad for the hoses and seals designed for R12. I searched the web and found many alternative refrigerants. Some of them available in Canada cannot be sold in US.

Here is one place you can start surfing the internet for A/C information: www.hdair.com/links.htm

Without knowing how well other refrigerants work, R134A is my next choice beside R12 at this time.


David
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  #4  
Old 07-13-2000, 08:12 AM
LarryBible
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The lack of R12 availability is extremely frustrating, and in my opinion, nothing but a bunch of political b___s___!

But, like it or not, or agree with it politically or not, it's a fact we have to deal with.

Be very, very careful when selecting an alternative refrigerant. Many of these "replacements" contain explosive chemicals. "Why does that matter, it's only inside my refrigeration system", you may ask.
The reason it matters, is that a locking up compressor or other things could cause a spark. It's not worth the risk.

In the US R12 is legally available, but EXTREMELY expensive. I expect that if you explore further, you will find an expensive and legal source in Canada as well.

Best of luck,

------------------
Larry Bible
'84 Euro 240D, 523K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles
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  #5  
Old 07-13-2000, 09:14 AM
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Having been involved in many technical discussions about alternative refrigerants, I will give you the best reason for only using R12 or R134a.

All other refrigerants are blends and can not be recycled. There are NO CERTIFIED tools to reclaim anything but R12 or R134a. if a car comes in with anything else in it it can not be worked on unless you plan to vent the charge.

That is the main reason but there are other good ones such as availability of refrigerant specific fittings (an absolute must for conversions in the US), availability of refrigerant for future repairs, and finally other than compatability with mineral oil none of the possible substitutes do any better (or convert any easier than R134a - just cause they say you can drop it in don't mean it will work, or last)

------------------
Steve Brotherton
Owner 24 bay BSC
Bosch Master, ASE master L1
26 years MB technician
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2000, 04:17 AM
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Larry's post reminded me a TV program months ago showing a burning car. The driver got burned but ok. The cause was a leaking gas cylinder (possibly the type used for BBQ party) stored in the car. When the driver turned the ignition key, the spark started the explosion.

If you charge the a/c with hydrocarbon type refrigerants (flammable, ban in some States), and the A/C coil leaks inside your car. You have a live bomb waiting to explode.

David
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2000, 05:25 AM
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JCE JCE is offline
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: So Kalifornia
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There is actually a lot of quality science behind the freon issue, but as Larry says, a lot of Political BS behind the lack of viable alternatives and the way the phase outs are conducted. Relatively little funding is available to test the potential replacements for r-12 (which really does adversely impact the atmosphere in a major way), but lots of funding is aimed at forcing the continued use of other environmentally harmful products (such as Oxygenators like MTBE - a proven water pollutant and severe lung irritant).
At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, when you examine which senators have oversight over which agencies, the BS behind what those agencies require (using products produced in large quantities in "certain" states) becomes a little more understandable. We do have the best government in the world, but it is all too frequently the best government you can buy!

------------------
JCE
87 300E, 65k miles
Smoke Silver

[This message has been edited by JCE (edited 07-14-2000).]
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2000, 10:34 AM
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To expand on Steve Brotherton's comments, most of the time this issue comes up because the system is leaky. When using a blend in a leaky system, the various components of the blend may not leak off equally, thus the composition of the blend changes. Over time you simply have no idea what is in the system. We have looked at this issue in the marine industry for several years, and have successfully used blends in systems where we were not expecting to keep the vessel in service for the long term, but for longer term reliability and service conversion is the way to go (FIRST - make you system tight!!!
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2000, 12:44 PM
Harvey Sutlive
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A friend of mine was showing me a two or three year old Ford 350 pickup he'd just bought. He said the AC in the truck had propane in it instead of freon. Could this even be possible?
Harvey
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2000, 01:11 PM
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Most of the time it is Butane but many things will work. The hydrocarbon/flammable refrigerants are SPECIFICALLY illegal in the US.

The explosion potential is amazing.
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2000, 07:29 AM
LarryBible
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Harvey,

If I were you, I wouldn't ride in or allow your friend to come near my house until he recharges the truck with R134. Although I would never do it, I understand thoroughly the desparation which causes people to use alternative, explosive refrigerants in their originally R12 systems. But this F350 being a few years old uses R134. Why would anyone do this when R134 is only a few bucks a pound?

Please encourage your friend to correct this for the safety of he and his family.

Good luck,
Larry
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