high mileage and what to expect - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Hocky · #1 04-24-2004, 11:48 AM

My 1997 C180 Euro version has 224,800kms on the clock and the last check showed noisy tensioner in Feb2004. The drive belt also looks like needing a new one, I am not sure. Noises come on when the car is started with rattling noises at about 1200rpm. Takes about 3 minutes before the rpm drops to 850 or so and the noises go away. At idle after this, the noise is gone and only normal sounds. However, when gear is choosen, the noise comes on again and is quite disturbing on the drive. What should I be looking for or listening for when the timing chain is going to fail and about when is this to be expected in terms of mileage expired? Could it be anything else involved like valves or other stuff getting loose with age inside the engine? Otherwise everything works like new, except the trans holds the 1st for a longer period than a Japanese car does, but it does not give the traditional jerk as it changes to the next gear. My 1994 C180 gives me the usual jerk every morning unless I move off at a slow speed and build this up slowly for the engine and trans to warm up. All comments will be accepted, thanks.

Ali Al-Chalabi · #2 04-24-2004, 01:06 PM

If the serpentine belt needs to be replaced, you will see cracks in the ribs and it will look older and dried out.

Timing chains don't usually fail themselves without warning. This warning would be the amount of stretch in the chain. If the oil has not been changed as often as it should, then this will increase the stretch that you would find on the chain. As far as the noisy tensioner, are you referring to the timing chain tensioner being noisy or the serpentine belt tensioner?

blackmercedes · #3 04-24-2004, 02:21 PM

224,000 km's is not high mileage. The thing about your problem is that we don't know where the noise is coming from. If it's the timing chain, I would recommend changing the tensioner and chain. You can have a mechanic check it for stretch.

The M111 double row chain usually lasts longer, but it depends on the oil change history.

As to tranny, is a five speed or four speed? Has it been serviced properly during it's life? In North America, our 1997 models only came with the 722.6 five speed automatic.

Hocky · #4 04-24-2004, 07:33 PM

Ali and Bmerc, the noise looks like coming from the front of the engine near the radiator from the outside listening. The serp belt looks like it has the worn look with very small cracks in the ribs noted, but doesn't look new at all like the one in my 1984 C180 which was replaced 2003. Is it necessary to change both parts, tensioner and belt at the same time? Shouldn't the tensioner also make the same noise at idle in N? Why is it quiet at N and makes noises when in gear? Bmerc, the 1997 model I have has the 5 speed auto and the 1994 version I have has the 4 speed auto. Thanks buddies.

Ali Al-Chalabi · #5 04-24-2004, 10:43 PM

When you have the car stopped and in drive, the position of the engine will be ever so slightly different than it is in neutral due to the torque loading on it. This can account for the difference in noise for the serpentine belt tensioner.

Hocky · #6 04-25-2004, 01:16 AM

Ali, I will try to get up front in a few minutes with the engine turned on at N to listen to this noise and watch what is happenning. The auto clutch or whatever lets it run faster for a few minutes like 3mins at 1200, then it runs down to a nice 850 idle I suppose to heat up the engine and Cat and lubricant. With no one to help, I cannot put it in gear to listen to any other noises while outside the car , but will try and listen from the driver's seat. Let you know if something strange is happenning. One unusual symptom is when I turn the starter key, the engine spins ok, but when it fires, it seems to make the whole engine block turn clockwise and I feel this in the driver's seat. It fires ok and runs ok after this. However, if I let the fuel pump run for a few seconds before the final click(2nd click), it fires up ok and naturally. Any comments about this behavior? The older C180 fires up immediately, but it has a brand new fuel pump and filter put in 2003. Cheers.

Hocky · #7 04-25-2004, 06:57 AM

Ali, I have pinpointed the noise to be coming from the vicnity of the water pump and feel that maybe this is going bad with internals being chewed up? Give me some advice on my next step. Have it pulled out to see if it is going south or wait till the water/coolant stops flowing and the engine overheats. Trouble is if I wait that long, I may be stuck somewhere I cannot get help easily and will then need a towtruck or lifttruck. The noise is at the round pulley fixed to the water pump, maybe its just the bearings? Give me some hope will you, cheers?

WANT '71 280SEL · #8 04-25-2004, 08:47 AM

If it is coming from the w/p, it is probably the fan clutch. Have you tried any belt dressing on the belt? One thing I did to test my brother's fan clutch was while it is running to spray just the smallest amount of lubricant on the fan clutch. If it shuts up after this, than the clutch is bad. You wouldn't be able to get any lub in the w/p bearings becasue they're far enough in that none would reach them so it would be limited to the clutch. Be careful when doing this becasue cintrifugal force will throw it and you don't want to get any on the belt because that might cause it to slip. Let us know what it ends up being.
Thanks
David

Ali Al-Chalabi · #9 04-25-2004, 01:39 PM

I think the most likely cause of the noise is the belt tensioner or belt tensioner shock. It is fairly common for the bushing on the belt tensioner shock to wear out and rattle around and thus make that sound.

I don't think it is very likely to be the water pump making a rattling sound. Don't know the exact location of the water pump on the 4 cylinder, but on the 6 the water pump and belt tensioner are fairly close together.

Hocky · #10 04-27-2004, 09:44 AM

David and Ali, The noise is exactly where the waterpump and fan clutch pulley is situated. The fan is missing in this 1997 model whereas it is on the 1994 to 1996 model which I also have. The older model has 1 engine fan with clutch plus 2 electric front mounted aux fans which get very noisy when the temp is up. The newer model has only 1 electric fan in front and it does not make too much noise when fired up. I reckon its this fan clutch attached to the pulley on the water pump that is the cause of the noise. Today I started the engine again and the noise was softer and lasted only 1 minute, not 3. I don't know if its ok now, but will keep in view and let you know what happens later. Because it is a mechanical fault, I don't think it can rectify itself.

Ali Al-Chalabi · #11 04-27-2004, 11:28 AM

If your car only has one large elctric fan and no mechanical fan, then there is no fan clutch.

PPatterson · #12 04-29-2004, 04:36 PM

I have a 97 C230 with 80k mi that, last night, I replaced my water pump. It was making noise from the front of the engine as you mention. To see if it is the water pump, you can disconnect the serpentine belt and turn/spin the water pump. Mine was so bad I could barely turn it by hand, probably got 6 HP by replacing. Also try to rattle the damper with the belt off. It is easy to put the belt back on so this shouldn't be hard. FYI-if you are replacing the water pump you may also want to replace the small "bypass hose" that goes to the t-stat (or other hoses and belt too). Why a water pump can't last a couple hundred thousand miles is beyond me, 80K is inexcusable.

good luck.

blackmercedes · #13 04-29-2004, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PPatterson
...Why a water pump can't last a couple hundred thousand miles is beyond me, 80K is inexcusable.

I haven't found water pump failure on M111's common. As these engines age (been around since at least 92/93 in various forms) I wonder if this has become a common failure item?

Any other M111 owners replacing water pumps?

Hocky · #14 05-10-2004, 09:35 AM

My 1994 C180's water pump failed at 188000kms. Its at 198000kms now and so far so good.

blackmercedes · #15 05-10-2004, 09:45 AM

The 2.3L version of the M111 from 1997- has only the electric fan. No fan clutch to bother worrying about, however if the electric unit fails, not so good.

It sure does make the engine accessible for things like poly-v-belt changing...