I finally, after numerous close calls, bought a fintail

[Mark DiSilvestro]

The big canister fuel filter is probably for one of the fuel injected models. Early Fintails used to have a tiny canister fuel filter mounted to the fenderwell, under the battery. If yours don't have one, you can install a small metal or plastic filter in-line with the hose ahead of the fuel pump.

I too would prefer Bosch ignition parts if you can get them. One problem I've had with aftermarket ignition parts is a defective condenser causing the new points to burn, otherwise I don't see the points-hole as a big issue.

If you're worried about fouling the new platinums, you could always check/clean the old plugs and try to start the engine with them first.

Running 20W50 oil hasn't been a problem with my Fintail as I almost never drive her when it's below freezing.

When I last checked, the equivalent 185/80R13 tires were still availible for your original 13-inch rims in NTB's store brand. I found a cheap set of B F Goodrich tires in that size, for my Fintail, at Sam's Club.

If you can't find 13-inch tires and decide to upgrade to 14-inch rims, some tire choices might be a 185/70R14, 185/75R14 or 195/70R14. You may have to measure your 13-inch tire's outside diameter against the 14-inch ones, as actual tire sizes can vary some from manufacturer to manufacturer, even if they're marked the same size.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[WANT '71 280SEL]

She's alive!

1. I got her started last night with the new set of points and a fuel can outside the car with a long fuel hose running to the fuel pump. I poured some gas into the carbs to try and help them fire and after about 15-20 seconds of cranking I got a flame that shot out of the front carb. That was interesting and frightening at the same time. It took quite a bit of cranking but after starting it a few times it is starting easier. I think the timing is off by quite a bit. For the car to run best, the adjuster on the side of the dizzy (for different octanes) has to be pushed all the way right. The car seems to have a little bit of a noise but I think that was really just the old belts making the noise. I kept the old Bosch plugs in there and will leave them in for now until the engine has been used a little.

2. A few more observations once it was running. The speedometer light does not work nor did any of the level lights. The fuses are good.

The A/C compressor comes on like it should and doesn't kill the engine. It was actually pretty smooth running but I'm sure there's no freon in it so no pressure and no oil, so I turned the A/C off immediately since I didn't see a low pressure shut-off for the system.

3. The front part of the brake reservoir for the fronts is empty. I noticed this before the car was running. Is there some sort of gasket between the MC and the booster? I would like to pull the MC away a little bit to see if fluid is building up inside the booster.

4. The car is certainly a smoker! It wasn't too bad after running about 5 minutes but once you just tap the pedal the blue smoke comes pouring out. There didn't seem to be a lot of blow-by coming out the PCV hose, so hopefully the bottom end is ok. I think I found a member here who will lend me the tools to do valve seals and I will check the guides then.

5. How do I time this car? Does vacuum need to be removed? I have never timed a car before using a light but I am willing to try. I know how to set the gun up but that's it. I do not know how to adjust the timing or where it should be at. I am pretty sure the timing has to be pretty far off because when hitting the gas, it sometimes takes a but for the engine to respond. It will almost die sometimes, then rev up like it should. What would be causing this?

6. Also, sometimes when pushing the throttle from inside the car it does not really move the linkage inside the hood. I have taken the joints apart and cleaned then greased them, but I still have the problem. It seems that when the car is running, the linkage is almost being held at the closed position since it takes quite a bit of force just to get it off the idle position but then it moves fine. Is it supposed to be like this?

7. The rear car b is dripping gas from it seems the top of the carb. Is there a common spot on Zeniths that these are prone to leaking from? It drips on the manifold so I don't want to turn this car into a fireball.

8. The chokes also don't seem to close like they should. Is there a way to see that these open when they should and how? When first trying to start the car last night the plates were about 1/3 open and the front one was different from the rear one. I moved them some to get gas in there, but they still never seemed to move from when it was trying to start to after it had been running for several minutes.

I number some of the points since this is a longer post. Thank you everyone very much you have all been very helpful.

Thanks
David

[Tomguy]

Congrats!

2: A fuse may appear good but be completely corroded in place. This prevents contact and, of course, has the same result as a blown fuse. Take them all out, and clean the contracts (try something soft like a cloth or pencil eraser first) and make sure all the fuses are the good newer ones that don't corrode as easily. Of course, your cluster may need bulbs replaced, or those may just need a jiggle because of corrosion as well.

3: If your master cyl is attatched to the booster, there is a rubber gasket between the two. If it's as old as the rest of the car, I'd suggest not doing this until you have a new gasket in hand.

4: Blowby isn't really noticeable until your engine gets hot (full running temp). Was it hot? There WILL be smoke if it was sitting for a while. My 4.5 sat for ~6 years, and blew smoke out for ~4 hours of running after resurrection. You did change the oil before even cranking it, I assume. If not, it's smoking blue because of the crud in the old oil (used oil deteriorates pretty fast when sitting!)

(Will post more responses after dinner!)

[Tomguy]

5: Since you replaced the points, unless your dwell is EXACTLY what it was at before, your timing will be different. Unfortunatley, my book does not list the specific value your timing should be (I'm sure that info is posted elsewhere or someone else has it, if it isnt listed on a plate on your radiator support). The first thing you want to do is turn your crank hub to TDC and MARK the timing where it should be (not the 0° mark, but the hub where timing should be at, like 5° ATDC on mine. Reflective silver paint works best). Make sure to use solvent (acetone) to clean the grease off the hub so the paint sticks, then use a toothpick and apply the paint in the line (if there isn't a line, make your own). Then when the engine is running, with the light hooked to the #1 cyl, point it at the indicator and adjust the distributor until the line you marked lines up. Vacuum should be connected while doing this, but if you disconnect the vacuum and it doesn't change the timing, set it ~12° further advanced (the line you marked will be to the LEFT of the indicator to advance timing). This MIGHT be hard to see in direct sunlight, so face the car away from the sun so the hood provides some shade, or do it in a garage, depending on how bright your timing gun may be - my old one was horrible and my new one I can see in direct sunlight.

6: Behind the gas pedal, there is a rod which is directly connected to the linkage. A plastic bushing (which hinges on the pedal) rides on this rod and must travel up and down it. After years of sitting, the old grease to make this smooth has probably caked on the resting position. Clean the rod off and apply fresh grease.

7/8: After sitting so long, your carbs are probably filled with varnished gas and/or gas evaporate which can be like sand, and your seals are probably shot. They'll most likely need a rebuild.

[300SDog]

Got yerself a timing light but no dwell/tach eh? Not kosher but no problem if you want to get into it anyway, though oughta set dwell at 37* + or - first.

White chalk stolen from a school somewhere works best for highlighting crankshaft marks because grease in the number grooves will grab it. Otherwise try whatever white powder you can find, corn starch etc and rub it in good. Then hook up your timing light. And slack the distributor collar just a tiny bit.

Park the car in dark garage or under a shady tree, start the engine and aim the strobe light at the numbers. I think the read should be roughly 6-8 degrees BTDC at static idle (no advance), but you caint know for sure without dwell/taching the points first. Difference between an excellent strobe light and a cheap one is brightness of the beam you will find out. Hooking and unhooking the vac advance shouldnt make alot of difference at static idle, maybe 2-4 degrees at best. Experiment with it. Meanwhile if the numbers aint right then shut down the engine and rotate the distrib a tiny bit and then restart until you get what you want. Play around with it and see what the engine tells you.

On the Zenith thats leaking gas, could be a breather port on top the float bowl chamber. IOW, fuel aint flowing like it should with nowhere to go and/or the float bowl valve is sticking. And what you say about the engine hesitating and then stumbling into inconsistant idle is called hunting - almost always carb fuel flow related when an engine hunts, as I'm sure you know already. And dont worry too much about the ball of fire scenario, gasoline leaking tiny bit on hot surfaces oughta evaporate getting absorbed into rusty manifolds before it catches fire.

BTW, smart move leaving the plugs alone.... You will need to look at them old plugs to help diagnose what been going on with valve seals and guides. Meanwhile worry about setting the timing, running a couple of lawn mower tanks of fuel/carb cleaner cocktail through the Zeniths. Chokes on em are strange and mysterious and shouldnt be forced. I'd probly think about driving the car first before messing with them. Hopefully they will fix themselves after the car has run for awhile. Remember at idle you're dealing with less than 1000 rpm opposed to 3600+ under load that could pop those chokes wide open.

Meanwhile keep it idling ALL THE TIME while you're out there messing around with other stuff like bleeding the brakes or rubbing the paint. The dual MC is tilted on 111's so the forward chamber will always be a little low. Its rare for MC seals to leak in reverse and push fluid into the servo because seals are tapered. Has the fluid level suddenly dropped since you've owned it? I'd suspect callipres first for bleeding fluid, or could have been air in the system all along. Another culprit could be the rubber seal between the fluid rez and MC. Any paint left in the immediate area?

Beauty of the m180 is simplicity of the beast. You are working with a bare bones engine and vehicle - no vacuum switches, weird solenoids or emissions stuff to create distortion. I think most modern day mechanics would kill for the privilege.

And the dimmer light switch you might be able trigger by rotating the knob back and forth. Otherwise have you still got that spare instrument cluster w/potentiometer instrument light switch that you wanted to make a lamp out of long time ago?

[meltedpanda]

Great job!

I have an old dwell meter and found that when I set the dwell using it the engine ran amazingly well. I set the points with a feeler gauge probably 10 times but never had the same results as a dwell meter.
If you get a lot of smoke at start up and when you rev it after idle it most likely is valve seals, still on my list to so here. you can take that potentiometer out of the dash , clean and repair it. I also set my timing advanced about 2-3 degrees.

[WANT '71 280SEL]

I know, long time no post. I have been in school since August. School is 3 hours away from home, so I haven't gotten to even look at the car for several months.

As for an update, I got an ignition key from the dealer, but it doesn't work! As it turns out, the VIN on the title doesn't match the car and I can't get ahold of the PO because I no longer have his number and his email was not set up correctly on ebay. I ordered a key to match the VIN on the car and it didn't work. I first saw the VINs don't match when the dealer guy said it wasn't an MB VIN number on the title. Anyway, I know I will need to somehow fix the VIN problem when it comes to titling, but I need to figure something out for the ignition key first. I think I can find a bill of sale when it comes to getting the car plated, but I'm not worried about that until I at least can get it running. I'm not going to pay for insurance, plates, etc. until the car is ready to drive. So, does anyone know for sure if the ignition key is different than say the trunk or door locks? I know Mark D. said he has 3 different keys, but the trunk/door key doesn't happen to work in the ignition does it? If someone could check this, it would be a life saver. I figure that someone replaced this ignition tumbler with one from a junkyard or some other sort of used one since the tumbler obviously doesn't match the car. I'd like to get the key issue fixed so I can start it more easily and turn the wheel since the wheel lock keeps trying to prevent me from turning it.

Also, the transmission leaks like a sieve. I got the car to barely move under its own power, but the transmission kept slipping because it is so low. I will start with a trans. fluid change so the bottom gasket will be replaced. The trans. it too dirty to tell where it's leaking from, but I am pretty sure that's where it's coming from. Plus, a fluid change won't hurt it. It also had trouble moving because of the severe lack of power, but I am primarily blaming that on the timing which is so far off.

I definitely have a lot of work ahead of me this summer but I am really looking forward to A, getting driveable, then B, getting the floors repaired and painting the car. I'm hoping to teach myself how to paint cars, but that is far off in the future.

Thanks
David

[Mark DiSilvestro]

You definitely have a can-o-worms to sort out. Let us know how you resolve the VIN/title issue. The Fintails use 3 keys. The ignition key is larger than those for the doors and trunk, and only fits the ignition lock. You might have to find a complete ignition/steering lock and key assembly on eBay or the May Carlisle Pa. Import Show & Flea Market. Replacing the steering lock, includes removing the instrument cluster.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[WANT '71 280SEL]

Won't replacing the ignition lock require having a key? I'm afraid I would end up taking the whole interior apart just to replace the lock cylinder, though I guess it needs to be done anyway. I want to go through the car anyway to at least clean things up and paint them, etc. I figure I can spray paint the steering column and see what else can be done to clean up the interior.

About the VIN issue. I don't know that I want to post on the internet how I could fix that. I believe if I have a bill of sale, with a signature and a VIN on it then I should be able to get a title. No one happens to know what I could use instead of a title to register a car do they?

Thanks
David

[Mark DiSilvestro]

In 1980, I acquired a 1973 Renault, with a Maine registration and bill of sale, but no title. Virginia's DMV accepted that and issued me a title because Maine didn't require titles until 1974.

I know that the key is required to remove/replace just the lock cylinder on some of these cars, however the whole steering lock and cylinder housing can be removed without a key. I installed a steering lock, cylinder and key, from eBay, on my friend Mike's 65 Fintail, because the PO had lost the original key.
I had to pull the instrument cluster anyway, to replace Mike's tempurature guage, which had melted when the PO burned up the original engine! I was able to reach the strap that secures the steering column to the dash, and the steeing lock mounting bolts then.
If you decide to take on the replacement and pull the cluster, be especially carefull of the capillary tube for the temp guage, as well as the line for the oil guage.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[WANT '71 280SEL]

Is this a difficult job, is this a job where I'm not going to be able to see what I am doing? I'll try to at least pull the cluster this weekend to see what it will involve. I also plan on keeping an eye out on ebay for an ignition lock with cylinder.

No one knows what it would take to title this car?

Thanks
David

[sjefke]

David, did you look at the Indiana DOT FAQs already?

http://www.in.gov/bmv/platesandtitles/titlefaq.html

You can always go and ask at a local DOT branch. I bet you are not the first one with a mismatch in VIN, especially on such an old car. Is the VIN way off, or just a typo? You could always claim that you got the car from some state that does not require a title on old vehicles and that the PO made a mistake on the bill of sale.

Regarding your key, somebody may have swapped out the ignition lock during the 40 years. I have a similar "problem" in my car. All doors and trunk work on the same key, except the ignition. And judging by the ring on it (loose), it was replaced at one point in time.

Good luck.

Bert

[Mark DiSilvestro]

On the one I did ('65 220S) the trickiest part was disconnecting the rigid metal oil line from the back of the cluster. I wound up first disconnecting the line underhood at the firewall connection, which allowed me to pull the cluster out far enough to disconnect the other end from the back of the oil guage.
There's more slack and flexibility in the capillary line of the temp guage, but I don't know if it's enough to move the cluster completely out of the way. If not, You'll need to unscrew the temp bulb from the engine.
And that capillary tube is fragile, so try to avoid twisting or kinking it, or allowing the weight of the cluster to dangle from it. That one I did had a ruined temp guage anyway, so I had the cluster completely out of the way, laying on the back seat, while I replaced the ignition lock.

As for getting a title, there used to be title services advertised in magazines like 'Hemmings', that operated out of non-title states, like Alabama. But I heard recently that some states, like California, are now auditing their records and voiding titles.

Some localities may be willing to issue a title through a mechanic's lien or application as an abandoned vehicle.

Otherwise you'll probably have to do a title search to track down the last legal owner in order to apply for a lost title. Possibly consult an attorney.
Good luck.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[WANT '71 280SEL]

About replacing the ignition lock, the temp. piece is already broken a couple inches off the engine. I believe that's what it is anyway. It's on the right side and located in the middle of the engine. It looks like wire that is very tightly coiled. Almost looks like some sort of piano wire. Would that be the temp. capillary that you're talking about? If so, I guess I need to find a used one somewhere, or is available at the dealer for a reasonable cost? Do you guys know where I could find a used temp. capillary?

About the title issue. After spending two periods of 30 minutes on hold, I got an answer. I was told to talk to the IL DMV about the issue and they can look it up in their records. I can tell from the VIN that it's not just a typo, in fact it looks nothing like an MB VIN. The IN guy said that IL will look to see what the VIN in their records is and the PO will have to request a new title.

Thanks
David

[Mark DiSilvestro]

The temp-guage bulb is held into the driver's (left) side of the head with a large collar nut. Soldered to the bulb is the capllary tube, a tiny copper tube about the thickness of a pencil lead. The other end of the tube is soldered to the back of the temp guage.
Most of the ones I've seen were protected by a braided metal mesh sleeve and covered with a black plastic sleeve. The bulb, tube and guage assy contains ether, is only sold together as a unit, and is expensive new. Awhile back, someone posted an article here, from an antique Plymouth site, about repairing one of these vintage mechanical temp guages.
Luckily, around the time my friend Mike got the used steering lock & key, he also found a spare Fintail instrument cluster off eBay, with a complete, undamaged temp guage unit, which I transferred to his original cluster before reinstalling it following the steering lock replacement.

Happy Motoring, Mark