odd classification question

[PanzerSD]

Some people think of their cars as a 3rd generation whatever or a Mk2 or Mk 3 est... what would a 79 450 SEL be within the lineage of the S class sedans (excluding the changes in wheelbase)

[1960mog]

Not sure I understand your question correctly.

Some people regard the 116 as the first S class, but I don't thing that to be true.

In some literature the 170S from 1949 is called the first S class after WW2.

The 170 fits much better in the line up of the E class, but being the most luxurious Mercedes at the time, it may be called a S class.

I personally think of the 220 W187 from 1951 to be the first S class (afterWW2) even if it never had a S on it's trunk lid.

The line up is more clear after the W187, in 1956 the 220S W180 was produced.

In 1959 the W111
In 1965 the W108
In 1972 the W116

So the W116 is, depending where you start, the 5th generation S class.

[PanzerSD]

Thanks you! You hit the nail right on the head 5th Generation S-class.. I just wasn't sure where to start the classification, and am not familiar with many of the older models...

[Palolo]

I hear ya... But as 1960mog mentioned, sometimes the first of a type is hard to define, and there were instances where upper/middle/lower were defined by trim levels more than chassis types.

I personally consider the W186/189 300 Adenauer to be the start of the upmarket or "flagship" sedan in the lineup, more than the 136, which offered the same car type, but differing mainly in trim levels to distinguish a basic 170 from a more upmarket one.

Then, following the Adenauer, comes the 112, 108, 116, 126, etc., each one the flagship car of their range.

Originally Posted by PanzerSD

Some people think of their cars as a 3rd generation whatever

I think that's a typically American (and fairly recent trend) to refer to chassis-types by numbered generations, or worse, "X-gen" (sorry, it is a bit of a pet peeve, and does sound a bit lazy and too Detroit-speak to be applied to Benz models, IMHO, especially since in some cases the chassis/platform remains virtually unchanged and the "generational change" is more of a body styling update).

Luckily, the way Corvette folks refer to their cars hasn't caught on with MB enthusiasts talking about E3, E4, E5, E6, or S3, S4, S5, etc., like they do with their C5 & C6 and whatnot designations.

Originally Posted by PanzerSD

...or a Mk2 or Mk 3 est...

The Mark or Mk classification is typically British.

The Germans, they do a pretty good job with chassis codes. MBs with their WXXX, RXXX or UXXX & UXXXX codes, BMWs with their EXX and now FXX, and so forth.

I find it refreshing and more descriptive to hear the MB folks refer to their 113s, 107s or 129s or 108/116/126... 114/123/124... you know, vs "3rd Gen E" or "4th Gen SL"

Anyway, that's my (limited) perspective...

Cheers,

Pat
1.5th(?) Gen Unimog ('66 U411)
3rd(?) Gen S-Class ('71 W108)

[mercmad6.3]

I dont think mercedes ever considered the W116 to be anything other than a W116 S class sedan. S originally stood for Sonder(Special) .Eventually this was an extra definition as Sondershutz (special body) to define a sedan with special body options such as armour plate .
Certainly no "series" definition is shown in their Classic wiki site .Mercedes have in recent years considered the ponton 220S as being the first S class sedan but it wasn't their flagship model and it wasn't even the best ponton you could order. That crown was worn by the 220SE cabriolet and the W186 300's were a far more prestigeous car than a ponton could ever hope to be.
W126 and W124 had a series 1 and series 2 type trim definitons which are defined by the different plastic molds along each side.






my pet peeve is the classification system inflicted on the world by US based car sales software programs which define Mercedes as 200 series,300 series etc .Try advertising a 170V where are the 170 series on car sales sites? what about w110 190c? grrrrr!do you advertise it as 190 series and lose sales because it doesn't fit in the program designers mind set? ...well it's the option open to many sellers .Even ebay.US has this same crap set up.

[DieselPaul]

Originally Posted by Palolo

Luckily, the way Corvette folks refer to their cars hasn't caught on with MB enthusiasts talking about E3, E4, E5, E6, or S3, S4, S5, etc., like they do with their C5 & C6 and whatnot designations.

We do do it. W124, W126, W116, W114, R129, C124, S124, etc.

C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, C6 are the chassis codes for the Corvettes, the first letter happens to be C, but they are going the same thing we do. Same with the BMW boys and the Honda guys. E46, E92, EJ1, EP3, EK9, etc.

On point however,

In this one the 116 is 5th


In this one its 4th

[1960mog]

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

The crown was worn by the 220SE cabriolet and the W186 300's were a far more prestigeous car than a ponton could ever hope to be.

Wasn't the 186 a class above the S class?
I would put it in line up of the 600 W100 and today's Maybachs.

[Tomguy]

I don't know. Can't you go pre-war and consider cars like this? Just to toss yet another wrench in
1928 Mercedes-Benz 680S Saoutchik Torpedo takes 2012 Pebble Beach Best of Show

[JimFreeh]

For me, two things distinguish an "S" class car.

Unique body: This removes the variants produced in the fifties and early sixties.

Top of the range: Naturally, this excludes the very limited production 600.



One could consider the fifties 300 range as the first S class, but by my definition, it would not meet criteria #1, as various subsets of 300 were produced, and only a small number of them were badged as "S".

The finback cars all had a common body, varying only in wheelbase (difference being in front of the A pillar and front wheel). Again, no unique body.

The first unique body, where all the permutations were badged "S" was the W108/W109 series first built in 1966. This was the first time MB had a distinctive, unique car line that could not be confused with the cheaper lines. The introduction of the slash 8 series in 1968 reinforced this distinction, and sowed the seeds for the current E class.

Jim

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by 1960mog

Not sure I understand your question correctly.

Some people regard the 116 as the first S class, but I don't thing that to be true.

In some literature the 170S from 1949 is called the first S class after WW2.

The 170 fits much better in the line up of the E class, but being the most luxurious Mercedes at the time, it may be called a S class.

I personally think of the 220 W187 from 1951 to be the first S class (afterWW2) even if it never had a S on its trunk lid.

The line up is more clear after the W187, in 1956 the 220S W180 was produced.

In 1959 the W111
In 1965 the W108
In 1972 the W116

So the W116 is, depending where you start, the 5th generation S class.

This has got to be strictly a numbers game, because I own a 170S and I can tell you, there's nothing S-classish about it.

I would go pre war and talk the 320S as perhaps the first and skip the 170 as a car that never figured out what it was.

Next question: how will you define the difference between the 170D, 170Da,170SD and the 170DS? In reality, as far as I have been able to tell, the 170S has different doors (more metal, less wood) than its predecessors in the 170 line, such as 170V. But size-wise, there's no difference that I know of. There may be a difference in the front fenders that has to do with the suspension, but despite the many different models of 170 from 1936-53, the big difference was pre-war+ 1948 (?) vs later models.

Plus, there are, as indicated, 220 series cars which are much bigger and more luxurious, but don't have the S designation on them. I have one of those too, that I'm working on.

The Germans seemed to be figuring out how to re-organize themselves at the same time as they were trying to make a profit selling cars from leftover pre-war parts and dies. Every car maker was doing that, that's why US cars made between 1946-48 all looked pre-war!

I don't know if you can even call these W136 cars part of the S-series.

[Xlimodriver]

I owned a '79 450 SEL back in the day and I feel that it is equivalent to the "S" class that I drive for 10 days a year that I work.