Opinions on vintage performance "add ons"

[sikbrik]

I'm just curious how many of you feel about power adders such as turbo and superchargers. I'm going to be doing a pretty thorough restoration of my 114 chassis 280C (if I don't just unload it cheap first) and I've considered doing a "hidden" turbocharger setup with TBI so the DOHC 2.8 will have a stock appearance but with some really improved driveability. The 8.0:1 compression ratio is just screaming for boost!
Anyway, just curious how this crowd feels about power adders as opposed to putting a different model V8 in the car. I'm not sure what work exactly would be required for a Mercedes V8 but I've shoehorned small block Chevys into a lot of different cars over the years. I guess the ultimate question is, if the car is very clean and nice, will the turbo really degrade the value a whole lot to a potential future buyer? These cars don't hold much value anyway so it's not a huge concern, but it's something to think about since a completely stock resto isn't out of the question.
Thanks for your time.

Mike

[Tomguy]

Here's how I view it:

I don't care what a future potential buyer might think. I'll keep mine for a while and if/when I want to sell it, I will. In the meantime, I'll do whatever I want to it, it's my car!

Of course, I'm a big fan of keeping things looking original myself - there are some major changes I can make to my 108/117 that'll really increase power/performance without making it look different from stock!

[kilgor]

It is a lot more complicated than you are describing.....

First,

You cannot hide a turbo or a supercharger at all, no way..... Then you need computers to watch over all that, timing issues, anti-knock sensors, waste gates, etc..etc...

However,

You can hide a larger lift, or longer duration cam, higher compression, port and polish heads and intake, custom exhaust...... but as soon as it is running, the changes become obvious to someone with an ear for such things...

Then there is a much LARGER problem....

Are these engines designed for the stress of higher power? Is the old steel in them forged components or cast? Then it moves on down to the transmissions, rear ends and brakes....

The best thing to do, is just tune it with stock setups... If you want a fast car, just buy a hot rod to begin with.

Even the Mercedes V8's are slugs... they are crusiers, not 1/4 mile cars.... Some of the new ones are rockets though!

I bought a w110 because I think they are interesting to look at, and I wanted to learn about Mercedes. I am amazed at it's simplicity and solid design. It's going to be my project for the next year..... It will stay bone stock...I want it to drive like the day it came off the lot..

[sikbrik]

Never said it was easy...and I might not have described it thoroughly but rest assured that I understand the complexities. The inquiry was more to find out opinions rather than discuss the technical merits and possibilities.

I'm not saying a turbo or supercharger would be "invisible" but it wouldn't jump out at you (ever seen the turbos on a Callaway Corvette?...not unless you were under it I've been building customs for a few years...to say that building a neat and tidy turbo system that appears mostly stock to the untrained eye is impossible is just an uneducated statement. I'm very comfortable with programmable EFI and have it in 2 of my current vehicles so that's not an issue.

About the stress of added power...I don't know. Maybe it's time to find out! What's the worst that could happen? I blow up a lackluster 130hp inline boat anchor that doesn't like the cold weather? Cast parts have proven to hold up under severe stress so I don't think forgings are a necessity unless I would get crazy (which I won't.) The key is tuning. Even high cylinder pressures are controllable if they occur at the right times.

The point isn't to have a "fast" car. I have a few of them already. The point is to have a nice "cruiser" Mercedes that can get away from the toll booths on the turnpike without holding up the CLK55 behind me...he or she can pass me once I've taken my rightful spot in the "slow" lane. 250hp would be nice. Even if it only measured 200 at the rear wheels. I'd find it hard to believe that even a vintage Mercedes transmission won't hold 250hp.

I do value your desire to keep your car stock, however, kilgor. It's just not my cup of tea. I guess I'm more curious if you'd snub your nose at a well executed but mildly turbocharged 114 (or in your case, a 110) if you were otherwise interested in the car.

[kilgor]

maybe I came off a little harsh.. it's hard to tell.....If I did, I'm sorry....

I didn't know you had the know how, thought maybe someone thinking it was a bolt and go option...

I just think it would be a major pain....

If I wanted to build a sleeper, which I do from time to time.. and if my 230 blows up... it will be getting a Ford 351w EFI with 4speed OD auto...

I don't know if I'd go to the expense of forced induction, etc... but everyone has there own desires...

I know that the rearend can take 300 hp...300lbs torque???...

It just seems that these cars are outrageously expensive to repair for simple parts...I just don't want to deal with having to get a Curry 9" Posi rear, cut to fit and then have to change the brake Master cylinder to an adjust. unit, just because I blew the rear... 2g's just for being too greedy in the power department.

Now an old dodge dart.... i'd rip that to pieces.... hahaha

Have you experimented with putting a custom EFI on these old cars? I would like to do that...

[300SDog]

Alloy heads on these puppies are soft as butter..... I'd probably start with polishing the ports on the twincam engine - followed with headers and wider pipes for breathability. But for cryin out loud, you dont want to plane the head surface to cylinder block - this will bump compression too far and rattle the lower end, wrist pins, etc.

Can stock camshafts be recut without destroying the glaze? ....thats another question for the twin-cam 280. Used to be somebody named Iskiderian of "Iskey cams" at Arizona who was best 3/4 race camshaft craftsman in the USA.

Meanwhile a cannibalized 'einspritzen' fuel injection system from any 280E or 280SE model should probably preclude turbo-charger or super-charger, doncha think?

[sikbrik]

I guess maybe you're all right...but the question still stands: if you found a vintage Mercedes that you liked as far as body and interior are concerned, would you be more comfortable with a stock appearing engine setup with power adders or with a Ford/Chevy/etc V8 installed? How about a new Daimler Chrysler 5.7 Hemi??? Or maybe a 2.8 V6 from a newer C280! Let's be creative if we're going to do a swap...
I'll take my chances with the soft head...people say that about DOHC Volvo heads, too, yet they mysteriously survive under 20psi all the time. In reality, I'm looking for 7 to 10 psi at the most. That wouldn't hurt too many stock engines if done right.
To answer Kilgor, (and I too apologize if I was harsh in return), I just began toying with the idea of using a modern EFI in the car. I don't really care for the old factory injection. I can't imagine that it could even begin to compare with modern EFI. I've got and older Chevy with a digital fuel injection system and a newer EFI car that was converted to programmable. I think what a lot of people get cought up in is trying to make their car the best it can be with vintage or factory technology (i.e. cams, bosch FI, etc) when there are other options out there that can improve power and reliability quite a bit more than these old parts.
Again, this isn't an argument piece to decide whether modern tech is better than old tech...just trying to answer the basic question that I brought up in the beginning, but it's all coming down to the statement that said "I don't care if people will buy it...I'll build it the way I want it." At this point, I couldn't agree more!

[Mark DiSilvestro]

If you could find a Euro-spec M110 injected engine (9:! compression / 185 hp vs
8:1 compression / 145 hp US) with the factory 5 speed as fitted to the Euro W114 280CE or W107 280SL, that could be the most direct way to gain significant performance.

If you're looking for 250 or more hp, swapping in some other V8 drivetrain (Small-block Ford would be my choice) might be an easier project than trying to engineer a turbo or supercharger installation on a US M110, unless you have a surplus of skill and resources (machine shop & cash) availible and patience for a lot of trial & error.

Awhile back, someone here posted pictures of an electric-blue W111 220SE with a 6.3 V8 transplant. Food for thought!

Happy Motoring, Mark

[guydewdney]

euro m110 with d jetronics are quite easy to find on this side of the pond...

im looking into tuning the m110 for a racing series..

[psfred]

First, in a W114/115 chassis, you are strictly limited in what you can stuff in there unless you are willing to do MAJOR modifications (as in a new front suspension). Only Ford or Chrylser front sump engines will fit -- GM rear sumps will end up in exactly the same spot as the subframe crossmember. Side clearance is tiny, and the exhaust will be sitting right on top of the steering box.

Tranny won't fit, driveline will be a magor pain (you will have to fabricate and balance a driveshaft). Rear end will have to be replaced if you want it to last -- the six and four cylinder rears are lighter than the V8 ones. You can use one from a V8 W116 or W126 chassis. I'd personally keep the factory suspension as you won't get anything as good to replace it.

Most of these engines are about as good as you are going to get without serious engineering -- AMG has made super hot versions of most of them over the years, so it can be done, but when you take them apart you will find that porting and polishing wont' do much for you -- already done. Ports match, the intake and head are precision cast and cleaned up, and polishing does nothing for FI engines anyway.

A throttle body injection system (Holley makes several that will work) to replace the Solex 4-barrel is one mod I would definitly make when the carb goes (as it will), but for engines, I stuff an M117 in before I'd put a Ford in there -- you won't get a big-block in anyway unless you replace the entire suspension (too narrow) and the M117 has more power than the Ford 302.

Most of these engines will knock on anthing less than premium, so be carefull of mods that raise compression or combustion temps -- you will have trouble finding fuel.

All of them are set up for high speed running at high revs -- they don't win stoplight drags, but from 40 mph and up, they will have termendous power. They also run at 5000 rpm all day long, something you won't get out of a pushrod motor.

Peter

[sikbrik]

Alas, the question still remains unanswered.

I don't view this as a forum to tout my abilities as a fabricator or engine builder although I'm easily much more qualified than many of you have given me credit for. Enough said about that.

I am still only trying to get a feeling for how this community feels about buying a modified car and, if it were done well and the car was otherwise very clean, how it would affect your purchase.

Apparently this has been lost somewhere in this thread and it should now perhaps be bumped to the performance section so you may all ponder about the possibilities (or impossibilities from the tone of many replies) of what can and can't be done and discuss your own limitations and reservations.

Thanks.

[kilgor]

I would make my own. I don' think I would buy one unless I knew the builder very well.

I have seen some really hack jobs on cars, and I would not want to inherit anybody's problems.

Now,

If you are thinking to offer turbo kits, etc for these cars... I would be interested in performance addons....

I don't think you are communicating your idea enough in each post... It's confusing...

What exactly are you offering? or is it that you want to do?

Make performance applications?
Build a performance MB and resell it?
Build one for yourself and make sure you can sell it later without taking too much of a hit?

[psfred]

No interest whatsoever in a "modified" car.

I suspect only gearheads into modifed (read street roders) would even pay the inital price for one.

MB enthusiasts tend to be purists -- we like the cars for the original engineering and performance and don't see tham as platforms for "hopping up".

Collector value for a rodded coupe will be nil. A Holley instead of the Solex would be fine for a daily driver, but for anybody serious, it would detract considerably from the value.

Peter

[sikbrik]

Exactly what I was looking for from somebody who posts very knowledgeable things on this board! Thanks psfred.

Kilgor, I'm not really considering offering any "kits" since the cars all vary quite a bit, from what I can imagine. I wouldn't think there would be too much demand for a W114 kit and the other models would require different dimensions that I wouldn't be able to adapt to without seeing/measuring/fitting one. So to be more clear, I'll be turbocharging my own personal 280C for my own personal gratification. If you want more details than that, it's only speculation at this point. I would estimate that I'll use one of the T3/TO4 turbos I have on the shelf with custom manifold, programmable EFI (modified stock intake), upgraded fasteners in a relatively stock engine (except for pistons, which are cheap enough to buy custom) that won't see more than 10psi of boost and most likely closer to 8psi for cruising. Stock freshened automatic trans and stock rear. Other little goodies like electric washer pump (I'm tired of pumping my foot if there's no clutch!) and other modern niceties and I'll be done. Then, if I ever decide to sell it, I'll just write it off as a good time while it lasted.

The car has a holley conversion on it now so it's not a "pure" stock car as it stands. From what I'm reading, I might as well make it enjoyable and forget about resale value...which is okay, especially since it isn't very high for this model anyway. I just wanted to get a feel for how it would be received, not only in resale but at shows and in other circles. Thanks!

[psfred]

Think 6 psi turbocharged, and then only if you can find 7.5:1 "low grade fuel" pistons. Stock is 8 or 8.5:1 and you won't be able to use normal fuel in it turbocharged. Takes premium as it sits, I believe, although the 74 may be de-rated enough for 89 octane. You want essentially no boost at all cruising unless you want to burn LOTS of fuel or cruise at 120 mph all the time. This is a gasser, not a diesel -- boost only at load, and then very low (4-7 psi), and all the gasser turbos I know anything about have low compression ratio pistons.

Check out the hp/ci ratio on that engine, then figure it out for a similar sized US engine, taking into account that MB rates hp and torque AT THE REAR TIRES, not the engine crankshaft. Deduct about 20% from US ratings. I suspect you will find you've got plenty of power. You're getting more with the Holley anyway, since it works and the Solex doesn't, unless it's way too big. Even then, it's just a big two barrel, and will work better than the Solex. Not a happy carb/engine combo -- even Solex couldn't make it happy.

MB engines wind way up -- redline is probaly 6600 for the M110, and they will run at 4000 rpm all day. 4500 is about the limit for an American V8 unless exensively modified.

Peter