Question: Anyone here ever actually lose the back on a swing axle car?

Yes; one learns quickly not to let off on the throttle part way through a turn

This looks like the limit of adhesion

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Tony H
W111 280SE 3.5 Coupe
Manual transmission

Past cars:
Porsche 914 2.0
'64 Jaguar XKE Roadster
'57 Oval Window VW
'71 Toyota Hilux Pickup Truck-Dad bought new
'73 Toyota Celica GT

That's amazing, your car? I'd love to share this with the Coupe Group if you don't object.

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1962 220SE W111 Coupe, 2nd owner

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../SideSmall.jpg

The Coupe Group (W111/112 coupes and cabs) official website
The Coupe Group on Facebook
MotoArigato: Roadworthy News & Humor

Naaah! Stick ya foot down you can get it to lean more than that!

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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

It's just a picture I found on Yahoo

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Tony H
W111 280SE 3.5 Coupe
Manual transmission

Past cars:
Porsche 914 2.0
'64 Jaguar XKE Roadster
'57 Oval Window VW
'71 Toyota Hilux Pickup Truck-Dad bought new
'73 Toyota Celica GT

I believe the movie is 'The Driver', 1976, starring Ryan O Neal as the one demonstrating his a getaway driver skills in an underground parking garage. The car is a W108, I'm thinking 250S or early 280S, with a crappy canary-yellow repaint.
You can see the original cream color after the rear bumper gets torn off during one of the 'stunts'.

I have a late '60s Chilton Mdrcedes manual that states "radial tires are not recommended for Mercedes models with swing-axles."
Though having driven an early Fintail 220S, with Pirelli radials, for a few years, I never had issues with the handling, and believe the Mercedes low-pivot axle, coupled with not having an engine in the rear, did not have the potential cornering problems of the early Corvairs and Porsche 911s.

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

That's a shame I imagined it was on your wall of fame in the man cave!

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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

THat's it, couldn't remember the title.

Link:

http://youtu.be/L78AwbNthF8

I took a couple runs in a Corvair at an Auto-X and that went as expected. If you brake and turn the back end comes out. Once you realize you need to separate the two entirely and actually be on throttle as soon as you can in a corner its not bad. Rather understeer when you ask too much of it, like most "modern" cars, it will get the ass out.

RE "The Driver", that's an odd way to interview for a job. Waste of a nice 108!

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63 220S W111
76 300D W115
2013 VW JSW TDI M6

previously-
73 280 SEL 4.5
86 300E 5 speed
2010 VW Jetta TDI M6

After ripping off the door, bumper and exhaust, then smashing the front-end & trunk, the car finishes off caving in the roof by passing under a lumber-carrier.
I have that clip on a VHS tape I mixed many years ago containing many chase & crash scenes from various movies & TV-shows, titled 'Driver Training'.

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

Radial tires were in their infancy WRT acceptance in the USA in the late sixties.

Dad had a set of Michelins on a 67 Pontiac Bonneville. They replaced the original set of tires, so at this time very few people were even aware of what they were. I can clearly remember riding in the car, and constantly getting bombarded by helpful folk pointing out our tires were flat!

I got my license in 1971, and since I was working at the lower end of the wage scale, my choice of tires was cost driven.... but I can clearly remember the epiphany I had when I transitioned from recap bias ply tires to used radial tires. It was amazing how much grip they had compared to the bias ply tires.

I suggest that this was the reason there were warnings about radial tires on swing axle cars. The greatly increased grip would keep the tire from sliding, and this further exacerbated the tuck under and lift issues. Personally, I ignored the conventional wisdom and fitted Michelin ZX radials to 59 190SL in 74. By then I could afford decent tires.......

Jim

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14 E250 BlueTEC black. 45k miles
95 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green 66k miles
94 E320 Cabriolet Emerald green 152k miles
85 300TD 4 spd man, euro bumpers and lights, 15" Pentas dark blue 274k miles

Sounds like the go-karts I sometimes race. On some very tight turns you can use this "feature" to rotate the kart through the corner. On bigger turns you just do whatever braking needs done before turn-in and then get on the throttle after the apex.

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Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar.

83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 400,xxx miles
08 Suzuki GSX-R600 M4 Slip-on 22,xxx miles
88 Jaguar XJS V12 94,xxx miles. Work in progress.

For years I ran bias-plies (though never recaps) on my Ponton 180b, mostly because of cost, but also partly because of that warning in my Chilton manual. One time I tried upgrading to glass-belted bias tires, but that wasn't much of an improvement. Even later, when I could afford radials on my newer cars, I continued to run bias-plies on the Mercedes.
Finally, in the late '80s, my Ponton needed tires, and I found a decent set of used 13" radials. I was literally shocked at the improvement in cornering, steering and tracking on that car, especially as how I had suffered with those crappy bias-plies for so long.
My Fintail 220S came with the PO's Pirelli radials. Those tires were superb on that car. Maybe the lack of an engine in the trunk helped, but I never felt uncomfortable, occasionally pushing that car a bit in the corners.

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

Some tire dynamics.

Bias ply tires have a stiff sidewall and soft tread. This is why they don't look flat and the unloaded tread has a pretty hefty crown. The tread is constantly scrubbing the pavement causing accelerated wear and grip issues.

Radial tires have a soft sidewall and stiff tread. This is why they look flat and have a nearly flat tread. The tread is mostly just rolling along and the sidewalls are flexing but not rubbing against anything.

We need flex in the system somewhere because otherwise we would have a very thin line of contact with the road ( steel wheel on a hard surface. )

If we have soft tread and sidewall, we end up with a drag race tire than winds up the sidewall to give more mechanical gear reduction due to the radius shrinking and a tire grows at speed giving an overdrive of sorts.