Hydrogen systems- has anyone had success? - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

vstech · #61 05-11-2008, 11:40 PM

Hmmm, ok, how MUCH extra energy is required to convert the water into it's component gasses? is it possible that a large solar panel could be used in the daytime to aid the alternator in creating additional watts for the electrolysis process? then the additional energy could come from the sun instead of the fuel/HP of the engine...
probably not nearly enough power from a solar panel, but just a thought...

#62 05-12-2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

Hmmm, ok, how MUCH extra energy is required to convert the water into it's component gasses? is it possible that a large solar panel could be used in the daytime to aid the alternator in creating additional watts for the electrolysis process? then the additional energy could come from the sun instead of the fuel/HP of the engine...
probably not nearly enough power from a solar panel, but just a thought...

Sure, you can always use an external power supply to separate H2 for use in an engine, just like you could use one to provide H2 for a fuel cell or use an external energy source for power to charge a battery (e.g., plug-in hybrids). The laws of thermodynamics (that these folks are ignoring) are applicable to closed systems, without external energy inputs. The problem is trying to use energy from the engine to produce H2 from water and them extracting the energy from the recombined (combustion) water, this is clearly a violation of the first law of thermodynamics.

The energy required to separate the H2 is exactly the same as the maximum energy that can be recovered by recombining the H2 into water during the combustion process, this is not due to the inefficiency of the engine; it is a fundamental limitation of the physics.

I am not saying that the use of H2 to somehow change the combustion characteristics of the internal combustion fuel is impossible. Someone might be able to design an engine to run more efficiently on a modified fuel that uses H2 as a component, just as you can design a more efficient engine to run on higher octane gasoline (at the expense of some higher emissions). However, that is not a "bolt-on" modification; it is an alternate engine design (i.e., higher compression, different timing, modified fuel injection, etc.) using a fuel with different components/additives (and probably worth some serious research). In that case, it would probably not make sense to use the engine power to produce the fuel "onboard" the car anyway. Then, we are just talking about the cost/benefit of reformulated fuel for use with a modified engine design (not unlike flex-fuel engines that are designed to run on E85).

probear · #63 05-12-2008, 01:00 AM

I bought one device that would save me 25% on my mileage, and liked it so much, I bought another, slightly different one that would save me 40%.
WOW, with this working so well, I found one more for 15% and the last one was good for 25%.....

EVERYTHING went great til I drove 10 miles down the road and the tank overflowed.......

whunter · #64 05-12-2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I put one of these in the intake of the SDL, it now gets 40mpg. Everyone should buy one.

Does it come with a flux capacitor that can handle 2.21 gigawatt's???

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=88570

RichC · #65 05-12-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

High Efficiency Gasoline Engine Using
Plasma Hydrogen Enhancement
• Hydrogen addition provides a large increase in fuel
octane number.
• High octane fuel allows higher performance engines
(turbocharging, high compression ratio).
• Engines can be smaller and more efficient.
• Hydrogen addition also facilitates ultralean burn.
• Engine efficiency can be increased by up to 30%.
From experiments at MIT Sloan Automotive Laboratory, 2003
http://www.psfc.mit.edu/research/plasma_tech/PDF/dan_cps.pdf
Correct, but you can take a fuel that it being used inefficiently, input energy to transform it to a more efficient form and net an efficiency gain.
You're loosing sight of the fact that the Sun's energy (primarily) is the initial input. Yes, it would be more efficient to directly use the Sun as an energy source rather than a by-product of it but at this time it is not practical.
The laws of thermodynamics are not being violated.
Wake up.
Maybe someday people will take a bit more time to think things through.

.

Nothing you said is against anything I said.

I agree with you on most of your ideas...

I can use hydrogen to supplement the fuel in my vehicle and it will run better.
I can also use propane to supplement the fuel and it will run better.

-----

The concept is the same.
The outcome is the same.
The two supplemental fuels are different.

One is hydrogen.
One is propane.

-----

Making hydrogen costs a lot more than
propane.

There is no way to make hydrogen that is cheaper than propane...

Not with a windmill powering a battery charger.
Or forcing water thru tiny cracks at high pressure.
Or using the alternator of a car.

-----

The problem is not whether it works or not.
The problem is the cost.

.....

There is simply no way that we know of, that we can produce
any form of energy that is more efficient than the process it took to
make it.

.....

It takes more energy in gasoline to run the cars motor to turn the
alternator to make the current that it takes to produce hydrogen
via electrolysis, than the energy you will get out of burning the
hydrogen you just produced.

If this were not true, every cycle of the engine would produce more
and more energy. As time passed the engine would be producing enormous
amounts of excess energy. We would eventually be able to power
everything in the world with the one engine.

No one has figured out how to do that yet !
Or we would be doing it !

-------

RichC · #66 05-12-2008, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson

Well, wood gas has been around for a very long time. I remember working with some Eastern European immigrants in Detroit that used it during WWII. Close enough?

Hey, I ran my go cart on wood gas and wood alcohol a few times
when I was a kid.

Cutting off my gas supply did not stop me from riding the go cart.

Wow, I was an evil genius as a kid !

.

RichC · #67 05-12-2008, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickMendoza

NOT DEPEND ON IT.

If the output turns out to be 1% then it is not worth it.
If the output helps out 25% to 30% then it would be.

I am going call water4gas tomorrow and make an appointment to see a system. They are about 15 min. away from me.

The guys name is Ozzie Freedom. Has anyone heard anything about him? Other than through the water4gas site?

I am a little paranoid now. I am going to ask to see the fuel tank for possible displacement of fuel, look at the filters etc.

This is why I like this site. I am going to copy paste all the questions and take them over to him.

Thank you

Nick

.

See if he will sign up for an account here and talk to us directly.
I for one would really like to hear from him.
Tell him there are many people here interested in his ideas.
and his system.

and the username water4gas is still open !

RichC
.

RichC · #68 05-12-2008, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldiesel

I dont know anything about thermodynamics,and i certainly do not know about hydrogen either. What i am pretty sure about is that an oil refinery produces products that can develop far more energy than was used to produce them,does this violate the laws of thermodynamics? Why then can a hydrogen device not produce a product that will develop more energy than was consumed to produce it? My $.02 Don

.

Oil refineries do not produce oil...

The sun produces oil...

Takes a long time ...

The sun produces all of the fuels on this planet.
we just distill or filter or centrifuge what she gives us.

RichC
.

NickMendoza · #69 05-12-2008, 02:49 AM

Where do you get those?

Did you have similar diving conditions to test it?

Nick

#70 05-12-2008, 02:50 AM

Forget the Tornado, a throttle body spacer will work much better.

turbobenz · #71 05-12-2008, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Forget the Tornado, a throttle body spacer will work much better.

Forget the throttle body spacer! Just put a magnet on your fuel line! That way the non magnetic hydrocarbon molecules will be magicaly aligned with your injector nozzles and give you 3+mpg!

thats almost as bad as waste veggie oilers putting heaters on their injector lines

#72 05-12-2008, 03:15 AM

How about this catalytic converter? He claims he can get a 318ci gas V8 to average 100-200mpg.

http://www.preignitioncc.com/information/

NickMendoza · #73 05-12-2008, 04:32 AM

Do you have a picture of the throttle body spacer?

What size magnet do you put on the fuel line? Do you put it before the first filter? Can you just wire tie it on?

turbobenz · #74 05-12-2008, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickMendoza

Do you have a picture of the throttle body spacer?

What size magnet do you put on the fuel line? Do you put it before the first filter? Can you just wire tie it on?

It was a joke we were joking

#75 05-12-2008, 04:45 AM

I bet with the PICC catalytic converter, a fuel line magnet, a TB spacer, a tornado, a hydrogen generator, propane injection a gallon of cetane booster and 2% biodiesel you could increase your engine's efficiency by at least 250%. You could easily get 157mpg+.

I'll sell you the instructions for a mere $1,500.