Hey all. Just heard from my mechanic that the injectors from my 14 casting head won't fit in the new 17 head. Is this more of the typical BS I have been getting from my mechanic, or is there something to this?

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At some point, the prechambers were changed so that the injectors sit at a 15 degree angle (just like the ones in the 605/606 engines) rather than straight up.

I don't know if they are interchangeable, but I believe the injectors are. Would have to check the manual to make sure, though.

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Yes, you can have just terrible trouble trying to get a junkyard 60 series diesel head to fit another engine, just lots and lots of changes, one of the "other" curses of a 60 series diesels. i wouldn't touch one, except maybe a 606. Problems with injector angles, and the amount the injector protrudes into the combustion chamber, and having "different" injectors than the head requires. Had several that were real ulcer jobs, ended up not being able to find a correct head and then had to buy a new bare head, etc etc.
He's not lying to you, I swear they must have redesigned these stupid 60 series diesels every 500 cars or so, and STILL they never got them "right" until the 606, and sometimes I even wonder about those......

Gilly

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GSXR has lots of first hand experience with this issue hopefully he will chime in.

I do know this issue has been discussed here before - did you try a search?

Not all 603 heads are created equal! Yes, the later heads were supposed to resolve the previous problem, but obviously according to what you say, they didn't!

Casting aluminum is an art! It's a merical that so many 603 heads came out without the usual "later down the road" failure!

Why?

Understand foundry/casting values for aluminum/aluminum alloy!

I just find it incredible that MB actually pulled it off with these heads and with attempts later to tweak them a little here and a little there, they had supposed to have gotten them closer to right, from #17 to the late, getting better with each tweak!

A bad #17 head may still be better than a good #14 head on it's best day! The taper introduced in the later heads does become a problem with early, or reuse of original precombustion chambers, but I have not heard of all other other head componants subjective to similar.

Can you elaborate?

Just refering to the usual "overheat-warp-junkpile" syndrome.

Gilly

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I didn't have time to do a search before I posted that yesterday as my ride was waiting (I hate having to beg rides from people!!!). Anyway, I did do a search this morning and it looks like they need to switch over the prechambers and perhaps do a little modification to them to make them fit. According to GSXR's posts, it doesn't sound like it is too big of deal. I just hope this nightmare ends soon...

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Sarafin

Do a search on "OM603" + "prechambers" - Dave has written a long and detailed response on this issue. The cause of the "problem" is that the later OM603 (and 602) engines had the injectors tilited about 5 degrees, I believe this change was made for emissions reasons. This change requires a bit of machining work on the prechambers if you want to use the old prechambers on the new style head.

Here's a cut-and-paste from one of GSXR's earlier posts on the topic of prechambers:

New prechambers are not required. the stupid WorldPac note about needing new PC's is wrong and pisses me off because it misleads a lot of people. Your new head may work with the old prechambers, or may not. If not, you need to modify the PC's (mill them slightly) to seat correctly. Or, you can convert to the inclined/angular injection, which will fit without modifications, but costs $1000-$1500 new and is obviously not worth it. This may be a viable option if you buy a used #17 head that includes all the inclined injection parts. Some people are lucky and bolt in old PC's with no problems.

The prechamber issue affects some newer heads - possibly #17 or #20 as well, definitely some #22, since it happened to me. Metric Motors says they find it on maybe half the new 603 heads they buy when rebuilding 603's. Some need machining, others don't. Apparently the design spec changed on the newer heads for the angled injector prechambers or something. Only way to know is to insert the p/c with the head off, measure protrusion, then insert a shim of known thickness (say, 0.5mm) and measure again, the difference should be 0.5mm - if not, you need to machine & repeat the measurements until they come out correct. Or after the head is installed and you get the nice "puff puff puff" when cranking (like I did!), yank the p/c's, machine them, and reinstall!

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Chris

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Yeah, I gave the mechanic that web address to pull that picture up. I just talked to them again and supposedly (with definite emphasis on the supposedly) they have resolved this issue and have it nearly ready to start. Of course, as always, I have heard this before and been disappointed before.

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Keep everything as simple as possible-but no simpler--Albert Einstein

Just heard back from the mechanic. Turns out their solution to the problem was a set of 350 injectors (remans, supposedly pop tested, matched, yada, yada). So, for only $240 more, problem solved (assuming they can get the injector lines to fit the inclined injector okay). After lunch they are going to be putting fluids back in and starting. Maybe my 4+ week ordeal is coming to an end and I will have a car again.

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Keep everything as simple as possible-but no simpler--Albert Einstein

Yeeeesh. Yes, that's one solution - swap to the inclined/angular injection setup - requires different prechambers, lock rings, injectors, AND shorter glow plugs. The metal lines are also different but they can be bent to fit - although I don't know if that's a good idea. At least try to keep your old PC's and injectors, I'm sure someone on the forum wouldn't mind buying them as spares...

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Oh, btw, your mechanic is wrong.

Well, I got the car back last night finally. Upon looking at my old head, I see why they didn't want to use the old prechambers. They could not get them out. They totally buggered up one of the lock rings and it looks like they started on a second before giving up. Last time I ever take any of my cars (unless under warranty) to anyone else for repair. I can waste a lot of time and money messing up parts myself and still come out ahead of where I was on this deal.

What's the story on the shorter glow plugs? As far as I can tell they used my same glow plugs from before with the new head. I did notice it started a little harder than normal this morning, but at this point just having transportation is a wonderful thing. I don't dare question them about the glow plugs (or I will probably lose my car for another 2 weeks while they figure out how to change them), so I guess if I need different ones I know what I will be doing this weekend.

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Keep everything as simple as possible-but no simpler--Albert Einstein

Shorter glow plugs? Hmmmm! Would it start better if you let them glow a little longer than usual?

If I start cranking right after the light goes out it will run really rough and blow a ton of smoke for a few minutes. If I wait 10 seconds after the light goes out it runs much smoother and almost no smoke!