Originally Posted by panZZer (Post 2782264)

There guys on the asto van forum that just used a s 10 t5 and bought an aftermarket shifter--stubb type and welded their own "swag" offset shifter to bolt to it since the officiat astro t5 is pretty much unobtalium

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2782270)

Interesting, so theoretically, the exact same solution could be used to make an s-10 T5 fit in a mercedes properly? Using an aftermarket shifter, then setting it up as offset, but stepping it back 10 inches or something?

Any pics of how they did this?

Originally Posted by SirNik84 (Post 2782293)

This is just me thinking out loud. I've always thought the Toyota transmission might be the route to go if you were to try and put a non MB transmission in the car.

The reasons I've thought this would work is because I've seen adapter plates for mounting the 617 to the Toyota trans. But the bell housing is also removable, as is the bell housing on the iron box MB 4 speeds. I've seen Toyota transmission adapted to other bell housings. meaning there are a few options to make the adaptation to the MB engine.

Also the transmission is long, and the shifter is at the very end of the transmission.

Plus Toyota used these transmissions in everything, from trucks to Supras, so they made adapters to relocated the shifter based on the application.

I know I've seen threads about these transmissions getting mated to MB diesels going into Toyota trucks. Has anyone ever thought of putting the Toyota transmission into the MB car?

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 2782482)

... heh, my ZF 6 transmission is quite a bit longer than the astro trans in your pic...

me thinks a SIX speed 300 may be in my future...

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2782235)

so check this out-

here we have the chevy astro 5-speed next to a 115 iron 4-speed. Ive thrown the MB shifter in there with the shift rods to show just how the location of the shifter itself is the big issue with just firing any RWD 5-speed out of dozens of vehicles in one of these MBs

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...rison/0025.jpg

Super inaccurate measurements, but look how the MB shifter is around a foot behind the actual box, and the chevy transmission shifter is actual about 5 inches forward of it. (they are both at the same line in front on the table) In this configuration, if you put the basic chevy box in an MB car, the shifter would be in your ashtray, or climate control

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/003.jpg
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/005.jpg

You can see from this side how the chevy 5-speed shifter handle is about 10 inches over to the driverside of the tranny through the astro-specific whoseawhatsit piece-

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/006.jpg


HOWEVER, here is my favorite pic- If you rotate the shifter extension on the chevy box, it puts the handle in almost the right place. There is no doubt in my mind that the correct attachment is available for some application that moves the shifter to the rear over the tailcone, or is customizable, making this type of chevy 5-speed that is common for camaros or something like it a possibility in an MB body.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/007.jpg

The trick is finding just the right old domestic or asian car that moves the shifter back in some way right over the end of the tailcone. I know from some other threads if you are buying a rebuild T5, you can buy pretty much any kind of extension you want, in multiple lenghts, but thats big money.

Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2782569)

I believe this picture is showing the mb tranny with the rods for a two forty installation. With a three hundred setup the shift rods are one bore spacing shorter, about four inches. That would make it look a lot more like the other tranny, I believe.

Originally Posted by Army (Post 2782694)

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2782710)

The super rare ones everyone scrambles after are the 38 lb ones from the NA 5cyl.

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2782710)

if its a 240 flywheel, while a wonderful thing :D, those are pretty common at 28 lbs or so. The super rare ones everyone scrambles after are the 38 lb ones from the NA 5cyl.

However, thats still a pretty good deal. Flywheel alone is usually 50-100 bucks from yards.

Originally Posted by lutzTD (Post 2782773)

it will go round and round and finally end on a BMW type getrag 265, the shifter is similar to the MB, the drive output is identical, all you gotta do is modify the bell and throwout, or cast a new bell. the 265's are on the bay all the time for $300, and I see them in the yards about 6-10 units a year. It was used in AMG's of the same vintage as our cars. if there was enough interest a cast bell could be viable around $400-600 but it would take a larger commitment of buyers to make it worth while. it would be a much better solution than an adapter to another makers trans and probable still way better than the adapte to the later MB 5spd. pony up 25 guys who will front the cash and we can get the ball rolling

Originally Posted by winmutt (Post 2782779)

How is the shifter similar? Totally different. But they are very common at the JY. I eye balled a few as a w123 solution.

Originally Posted by winmutt (Post 2782779)

How is the shifter similar? Totally different. But they are very common at the JY. I eye balled a few as a w123 solution.

Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 2782822)

My .02 worth

1. Many folks say the Getrag 717.400 is common enough to just go out and buy one. However, looking at the threads over the years, folks are actively searching for one for extended periods of time. Thus, what is a rough guess as to the universal supply & demand?
2. Is this really as simple as casting a new bell housing? If so, need one really good bell housing to make the mold. Although the first one would be pricy, making 100+ would probably cost about $200.00. So, amortorizing the costs still make this a cheap solution for a 5 speed. That is why I ask the universal supply and demand question since this will drive the price. The more produce drives the first unit costs down over the production. Is it just the bell housing ? Who will donate one for the mold ?

Overall, GREAT idea

Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 2783247)

$10K ? Having never made one of these, this may seem out of line, but one can get an aluminum head for way under that, under $1,000 and that is for a production run under 10 where the universal supply and demand is incredibly limited. My guess is that a head is much more complicated than a bell housing. Assuming the costs are much lower, is there anyone out there able to advise if the bell housing is the major factor / major part?

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 2783267)

Many factors. Yes a head is more complicated. Time is also a factor. I think one bellhousing I did some design work cast $35K to cast prototypes. Due to time constrianst, it was needed in two weeks. Usual time is about a month. Also, were the part is cast. China is much cheaper, at least at the moment. So, we are comparing a price for a prototype to a limited production. Cost should be simular, but I'd think somewhat less for a production part.
Still, I was pointing out that the main cost would be the initial casting cope and drag or forms.
Tom

Originally Posted by winmutt (Post 2783323)

Has anyone simply thought about asking ZF?

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2783315)

I 2nd this. I have some experience with plastic roto-mold construction, and even though its a totally different medium, the construction of a precision mold is not cheap. 10 to 20K minimum, and that would be a much simpler mold than something for cast aluminum.

Also, question on the custom head. For a custom head, would it not be completely machined out of a block of aluminum? I figure for something like that you would start with a blank of raw material, and machine it to specs, you wouldn't be casting something new first I don't think.

To cast a complete bell housing, you need to create a complex mold, followed by lengthy machining process. By the time you are done, it would be 20-30 times the price than just adapting something else, or another chassis transmission to the application.

Im not sure its a totally realistic idea for this, you would need a very large group of people to pony up a very large collection of cash for an extremely complex, completely untested product that requires many many steps in construction.

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2783333)

thats a good idea, but how big is the market for this really?

1-You have a car and engine last produced in the mid 80s, getting on 25-30 years ago.

2-You have a percentage of owners of those cars with that engine who drive stick and prefer it.

3-You have an even smaller percentage of those stick drivers who are willing to do a lot of work and labor to add a 5th gear


So basically, if I were ZF, I would see my maximum target market as a small part of a shrinking demand, which is a small part of a shrinking variant of transmission options and people who use them, which is part of a group of car enthusiasts driving around a shrinking collection of antique cars. A small part of a small piece of a small group that keeps getting smaller in short.

The market for them making something would only be able to grow in a very limited space for a very specific group that is constantly contracting as the years go by, not saying it wouldn't be worth it, just that it would be difficult to demonstrate that it would be very profitable.

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 2783350)

Still the $600 offer on the table has scared many away.

Originally Posted by winmutt (Post 2783353)

Gotta think of europe and the rest of the world, engines from 200,240,280,300. Across a variety of chassis including galendewagens, pontons, SL's etc etc etc. I would pay 2k maybe 3k shipped for a brand new in box with warranty trans. G wagen owners world wide would not hesitate at the opportunity regardless of the price.

Globally I can easily see a batch of a 1000 of these at a reasonable price being sold with in one year, hell within a few months.

Originally Posted by winmutt (Post 2783353)

Gotta think of europe and the rest of the world, engines from 200,240,280,300. Across a variety of chassis including galendewagens, pontons, SL's etc etc etc. I would pay 2k maybe 3k shipped for a brand new in box with warranty trans. G wagen owners world wide would not hesitate at the opportunity regardless of the price.

Globally I can easily see a batch of a 1000 of these at a reasonable price being sold with in one year, hell within a few months.

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2783370)

true, if they also managed to completely update the shifting away from the clunky side levers too, and you had a configurable new trans that would work in a dozen applications perhaps. Would be a completely awesome solution

Im still kind of interested in the toyota trans though, its just so close as far as starter position and bell size. Wasn't there a thread on a guy who put a 617 in a 4 runner or something, and he had some great pics of how perfectly the bell matched up? Im trying to find that thread

EDIT- here it is, look at some of these pics where he comes up with the adapter- (I also stole some of his pics) I mean, look at that, look at how close that trans in to a stock MB configuration

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?8362-89-Toyota-4runner-OM617.952-Benz-Swap

Originally Posted by SirNik84 (Post 2783506)

The main issue is.... will the damn thing fit in the car?

Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 2783491)

LutTD--

I am very interested !!! And, if this appears to be seriously viable, I will pony up the $500-$600.

Would you be making the plate OR the bell housing ?

What else would be needed, and my questions still apply to the donor transmission.

Originally Posted by lutzTD (Post 2783550)

with the getrag 265 you would need:

getrag 265 and shifter from a BMW, about $200 at PNP
new custom cast bell
hydraulic throwout bearing
modify MB shifter rod and bracket if needed
clutch is sized by trans spline and diameter
use mb pressure plate and flywheel
3 ear adapter on BMW is different, I think the spline will accept the MB part but I stopped before I verified this, if not it will take some sort of adapter
adjust front DS length

Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 2783456)

Tom, et al,

I think you took my post the wrong way. If it was perceived as a jab, my apologies. It was never meant to be a jab.

When I was young and dumb, I had a 1954 Packard Caribbean Conv't. The senior model Packards had a 359 cu.in, straight 8. The head was aluminum which was most likely toast if original. They only made 400 of these cars in 1954. The senior models were more numerous, but Packard went out of business in 1956-7 -- they merged with Studabaker in 1954. What I was getting at is that the head is cast aluminum, has all kinds of stuff going on inside even though it is about 3-4" (from memory). Back in the day, you could buy one new for under $500. Taking into consideration inflation, et cet., the costs should not be horrible for a newly casted one. But as others correctly pointed out, finding a "donor" whatever make transmission and making a bell housing is easier said than done. And the others who correctly pointed out that finding one of these bad boys is not so simple as just buying one, thanks because I was ready to get a scolding for wondering where I could buy one.

I think step one may be: Can one of the transmission guru's ID which transmission would be the BEST candidate for a 5 speed with a modified bell housing or newly casted bell housing ?

Universal Supply & Demand question and answer - done, great job knowing that it is pure luck and not just "buying one"

Originally Posted by dropnosky (Post 2783556)

do you have any pics of the 265?

There were 4-5 in my local junkyard up until about a month ago.