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Kit to allow use of 5 speed W124 manual gearboxes in a W123
3 Attachment(s)
G'day Folks,
I saw this and I thought of all of you automatic transmission haters out there! {I don't know why you all hate them so much - but here goes this one's for you baby!} http://link.marktplaats.nl/478988493 Because this link won't last forever I've made some screen shots for you. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...1&d=1314700801 A rough translation for you non Dutch speakers out there - done by yours truly - so it will be a bit off! Adapter kit for older 4 speed W123 (and other older models) to enable you to fit a W124 5 speed gearbox. The adapter [rings] replaces the transmission adapter to allow you fit the W124 5 speed gearbox. The starter remains in the old position. This kit only contains the adapter rings. Other alterations such as transmission mount and the propshaft are simple enough for you to work out yourself [!] 525 Euros for the adapter rings (excluding the gearbox and the engine) ... http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...1&d=1314700821 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...1&d=1314700834 So you'd still need to sort out the propshaft, flywheel (if it wasn't a manual one), transmission mount, and other bits such as a gear lever in the right place (perhaps?)... Enjoy! P.S. This has nothing to do with me! I'd just post up the plans so you could get your own CNC machining done! |
$750 is a lot for a piece of metal. You could buy a genuine W123 5-speed from Germany less.
That and the starter nose will still hit the transmission bell and leave a big hole for debris/water to get in. |
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if time were money a lot of guys spent much more than that on a lot of other schemes to get a 5 speed in a W123 :) thanx for the link. hopefully if someone tries it they will post results or even better the process |
900+ shipping is more like it. For that kind of $ you can buy a 5 speed.
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Hey Winmutt,
How can I get a Getrag 717.400 5 speed for $750 or whatever the costs noted by Forced Induction ? From Germany or where ever? I have been looking for years now. I am looking for a 4 speed donor car to get everything BUT the 5 speed transmission. Any leads would be very appreciated. Winmutt, you're about 3 hours from me. I am willing to drive one weekend to get the 5 speed. If that happens, I have an awsome upgraded driveshaft for sale since the 5 speed transmission will use a shortened driveshaft. Thanks. |
Here is the Google translation
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fauto-onderdelen.marktplaats.nl%2Fmercedes-benz-onderdelen%2F478988493-aanpassing-kit-voor-w124-5-bak-in-w123-115.html There is also the Dropnosky method. http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-How-to-adapt-a-W201-5-speed-to-OM616-OM617-applications Charlie |
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http://link.marktplaats.nl/475272346 150 euros... but we hit ye olde postage problem again... |
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OH darn, I thought you would be all snuggle in your bed by now.:D 6:40am on the west coast, and first cup of coffee. Charlie |
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Any one know somebody in the military that could swing by and pick that thing up? Charlie |
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Thats for a W124. I have a W123. 1985 300D. Anyone out there for my car, W123
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500 Euros to you my very good friend! |
Things sure get messed up in the translator sometimes:
Description, "W123 gearbox are in town, he works well off 5 good cook is very rare 5 box he comes from under my 230th." Is a Euro about the same as the Dollar? Charlie |
1euro = 1.44 usd today. + 18% VAT + shipping.
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Army,
I will post my commentary here as I posted it on SuperTurboDiesel (roughly speaking): Does anyone have a very rough guess as to universal supply and demand for a Getrag 717.400 Manual 5 Speed Transmission ? I believe I will need a 4 speed donor car for the remainder of the parts, so 2 cars are really needed for the transplant -- and a lot of luck. I have access to a US Post Office on a military post, so if someone OCONUS can ship that from a US Post Office on a military installation, post office to post office, then the prices are same as we enjoy in the USA. I cannot image that the US demand for a Getrag 717.400 is so huge that the universal supply could not accomadate the need without price gouging. Any thoughts from Europe ? |
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I can't get onto a US military base - I don't have a suitable ID card (any more). Even if I could the nearest USAF base to me would probably be this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Air_Base_Geilenkirchen and there may not be a US post office there... to be sure I'd have to go to the other USAF bases that are further south... In realistic terms it would be easier for me to go to Schipol airport (out skirts of Amsterdam) and get on a plane and fly it to you... |
My memory sucks.... LOL. You did point this out .... Sorry about that.
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For 99% of the purchases on Marktplaats you wouldn't expect to have to pay VAT (now 19%). Shipping is the killer for anything that can't be put in an envelope with a stamp. |
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A cross member for a 5 speed W123 cost another forum member a reasonable amount to send - but a gearbox or a steering box... that's getting way out of hand. |
Well, I indicated elsewhere that most of the price increases or price premiums is the result of my impatience. As for the MECHANICAL steering box, I think I have a lead on one for about $23.00 USD. So, the all elusive pictures never materialized and I did not pay the $6.00 bump for a snappy. May have saved about 75% and maybe a bunch of headaches and disappointments. Then again the $23 may be a waste of time too because I may opt for the electric power steering pump. I will post my project on STD.
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This seems like the kind of thing Kennedy Engineering might be interested in making. They do a lot of engine adapters for VWs and exotics. If I were really intent on doing a conversion like this in the U.S. I'd talk to them.
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I've contacted a few folks out there in the engineering field, and the costs go through the roof and the project becomes untenable -- at least on my budget. The trans deal is really a tough one to crack, i.e., adapting plate, et cet. Simpler items include the PS, Vacuum Pump, and EWP. Hooking up an electrical PS pump from a different car has been done by a bunch of folks in different applications. If it doesn't work, then I am probably out no more than $100.00 or so. So, if it works, then great. Or, an EWP is about $400.00 or so. Just getting an engineer to look at this will cost way over $100, and that is before I even get one blueprint or CAD drawing, and there is no way to amortrize the costs or spread them so that the costs are not a killer. Too costly to re-invent the wheel.
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have you spoken to machine shops?
adapter plates are a pretty common thing to make, lots of guys have made crude ones out of 1/2 inch thick steel plate and a torch for little money, but almost all the time the engine was coming out and going into a much more configurable body. I have one that adapts the OM617 to a variety of chevy transmissions. Cost me I think 900 bucks or so, including a bunch of other bits to make it work, flywheel, spacers, hardware, ect. The big trick we need to find in north America is what domestic or asian common 5-speed will fit in a MB trans tunnel and work. Its difficult to get anything interesting in these older cars because of the oddball spacing designed around the old side lever tranny setup. |
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http://www.driftingstreet.com/drift-cars.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rear_wheel_drive_vehicles http://www.rearwheeldrive.org/rwd/rwdlist.html But wait for it http://www.iseecars.com/cars/rwd-manual-transmission-cars |
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The UK had many of them too. |
I posted this somewhere else, but photobucketed it so I could put it in this thread also-
heres a domestic NV3500 S-10 tranny, with a 123 chassis 5-speed in the middle, and a 115 chassis 4-speed on the bottom. The shift linkage for the two MB trannys would put the shifter about 8-10 inches beyond the NV tranny, right about where the NV tailcone ends I think. If you were to get the NV into your MB, the stick would come up somewhere under the climate control in other words. I have an older late 80s chevy transmission out of a van which is closer to the MB size, and also has a positionable shifter, ill get a pic on that later on, but if it could go straight back it could possibly work. Some kind of Tremec variant. Its actually a 5-speed out of an Astro minivan, so just about as rare as a 123 5-speed. But the transmission might be common to late 80s chevy products, I have to run some numbers http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...nycompare1.jpg |
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you would end up using the conversion kit for those two though, the starter is on the wrong side for the diesel 123s, would be great for the later models though. So the euro 123 chassis 280CE and such had the starter on the driver side? |
MG5 NV3500 4.016 2.318 1.401 1.000 0.729
M50 NV3500 3.490 2.160 1.400 1.000 0.780 MB/Getrag 4-speeds A 3.90-2.30-1.41-1.00 B 3.91-2.32-1.42-1.00 C 4.23-2.36-1.49-1.00 D 3.91-2.17-1.37-1.00 E 3.98-2.29-1.45-1.00 Getrag 5-speed 3.82-2.20-1.40-1.00-0.81 If you were to make the M50-NV work, you would need a 3.69-3.46 diff to keep 1st and 5th gears usable. The MG5 wouldn't work with the OM617's torque band, 5th would lug the engine under 75mph with anything higher than a 3.69 and that would make 1st a useless granny gear. Quote:
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Interesting to know the ratio's on it though. I ended up selling it to a S-10 tuner thug when I found my other chevy tranny, which probably has the same ratios |
I have been keeping an eye out on German Ebay. There was a few of these months ago. I contacted the sellers, but no luck. But thanks anyway Forced Induction.
As for other engineers out there, I contacted some folks up in WI or MI -- I forget -- and they do a conversion with a common Chevy 5 speed. They actually list their product conversion for the OM617.952 engine on their web page. They only sell the plate and the plate was a bundle. I called them and they indicated that they have nothing to do with anything else in the conversion. By email, they pointed out the obvious, e.g., need linkage, flywheel, driveshaft, et cet. So, assuming that Forced Induction is correct, sticking with MB parts may be cheaper in the long run. Not sure, however, since I cannot locate a Getrag 717.400 |
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For $1000 you'd have a known working combo that practically falls in place (and if you find a euro 5-speed 300D it will literally fall into place) compared to a jumble of custom parts and 100+ hours hours planning/fabricating. And with all that custom stuff you'd likely spend more than $1000 or end up saving a few hundred at most. It all depends on your resources and if you would truly enjoy the work. |
Hey Forced Induction,
Would you be interested in the above if I offered you a finder's fee? I don't know, 10-15% assuming the $850 is in the ball park. I can handle the drive shaft cut on my own. Obviously, I would handle the shipping costs. Please let me know. Thanks. |
HA! If I had $1000 lying around I'd have spent it already. :D
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At least if you acted as my "buying agent", you would have at least 10-15% towards your purchase of the elusive Getrag 717.400 manual 5 speed transmission.... LOL
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It is possible to also modify a W201 tranny to fit. I did this with decent success for my 240, but it was about the same price and more time invested than just sourcing a euro transmission. After about 10-12 thousand miles I took it out, took it apart, and its now destined for my 115 behind a turbo 617.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-How-to-adapt-a-W201-5-speed-to-OM616-OM617-applications The 717.411, .410, and .412 are all slightly different W201 boxes that might work However, all three are way less robust looking than the .400 I also have. (sourced actually the long way around from FI, who originally pulled it!) The 717.400 has what appears to me to be larger, better synchros, larger gears overall, and seems heavier duty. The one I have is potentially blown though. (Reason I have it cheap). Im trying to figure out how to take it apart currently, only made it as far as overdrive inside. |
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Its tricky, because of its rarity, and also because of less than complete disassembly instructions (I printed the diagram from the EPC), Im super reluctant to use any force to try and get it apart For instance, its really hard to tell from the EPC how the overdrive gear is removed. If it was anything like the W201 boxes, it should just slide off once the sychro is disassembled, but it looks like it needs to be a puller of slide hammer that will remove it. Its completely different Originally I was thinking I could replace the bad gears I found with spare parts from several blown 412s and 410s I have, but the overall size of the internal gearset seems to be larger. |
All I have is the 716 manual.
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What a familiar argument. Im sorry, but the next parts guy who knows as much as an enthusiast who isnt an enthusiast himself will surprise me. I can't believe you found two, lucky dog! I had to coax mine out of a PITA guy in the midwest, and all said and done, its completely blown. Did you rebuild any of yours? have any rebuild kit part numbers or anything? |
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I remember when I bought my 87 astro, there was a 4.8L Diesel option... ANYBODY ever seen one of those? |
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so check this out-
here we have the chevy astro 5-speed next to a 115 iron 4-speed. Ive thrown the MB shifter in there with the shift rods to show just how the location of the shifter itself is the big issue with just firing any RWD 5-speed out of dozens of vehicles in one of these MBs http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...rison/0025.jpg Super inaccurate measurements, but look how the MB shifter is around a foot behind the actual box, and the chevy transmission shifter is actual about 5 inches forward of it. (they are both at the same line in front on the table) In this configuration, if you put the basic chevy box in an MB car, the shifter would be in your ashtray, or climate control http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/003.jpg http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/005.jpg You can see from this side how the chevy 5-speed shifter handle is about 10 inches over to the driverside of the tranny through the astro-specific whoseawhatsit piece- http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/006.jpg HOWEVER, here is my favorite pic- If you rotate the shifter extension on the chevy box, it puts the handle in almost the right place. There is no doubt in my mind that the correct attachment is available for some application that moves the shifter to the rear over the tailcone, or is customizable, making this type of chevy 5-speed that is common for camaros or something like it a possibility in an MB body. http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/...arison/007.jpg The trick is finding just the right old domestic or asian car that moves the shifter back in some way right over the end of the tailcone. I know from some other threads if you are buying a rebuild T5, you can buy pretty much any kind of extension you want, in multiple lenghts, but thats big money. |
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and the stock slave cyl on the firewall operating another slave bolted to that casting jutting out from the DS of the bell--axe all that and get a hydro TOB out of speedway, jegs, etc. saw off the piece sticking out off the bell to use it in something else-- no way its needed in anything except an astro-and a 1998-up? camaro also has a Hydro bearing--but the front camaro bearing retainer would have to be used. |
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End goal is a 4cyl turbo diesel 5-speed delivery/work van. I have not started a thread on PP about this plan because I have noticed a tendency in myself to start threads about topics I find interesting, then lose steam or get distracted with no completion in sight. :D |
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