Kit to allow use of 5 speed W124 manual gearboxes in a W123 - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #61 09-01-2011, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

so check this out-

here we have the chevy astro 5-speed next to a 115 iron 4-speed. Ive thrown the MB shifter in there with the shift rods to show just how the location of the shifter itself is the big issue with just firing any RWD 5-speed out of dozens of vehicles in one of these MBs

Super inaccurate measurements, but look how the MB shifter is around a foot behind the actual box, and the chevy transmission shifter is actual about 5 inches forward of it. (they are both at the same line in front on the table) In this configuration, if you put the basic chevy box in an MB car, the shifter would be in your ashtray, or climate control

You can see from this side how the chevy 5-speed shifter handle is about 10 inches over to the driverside of the tranny through the astro-specific whoseawhatsit piece-

HOWEVER, here is my favorite pic- If you rotate the shifter extension on the chevy box, it puts the handle in almost the right place. There is no doubt in my mind that the correct attachment is available for some application that moves the shifter to the rear over the tailcone, or is customizable, making this type of chevy 5-speed that is common for camaros or something like it a possibility in an MB body.

The trick is finding just the right old domestic or asian car that moves the shifter back in some way right over the end of the tailcone. I know from some other threads if you are buying a rebuild T5, you can buy pretty much any kind of extension you want, in multiple lenghts, but thats big money.

I believe this picture is showing the mb tranny with the rods for a two forty installation. With a three hundred setup the shift rods are one bore spacing shorter, about four inches. That would make it look a lot more like the other tranny, I believe.

JB3 · #62 09-01-2011, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I believe this picture is showing the mb tranny with the rods for a two forty installation. With a three hundred setup the shift rods are one bore spacing shorter, about four inches. That would make it look a lot more like the other tranny, I believe.

yeah, you are right! subtract 4 inches or so, was it 4 or 4.5 inches shortening the shift rods?

even better

Stretch · #63 09-01-2011, 10:34 AM

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=304424

JB3 · #64 09-01-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=304424

if its a 240 flywheel, while a wonderful thing

, those are pretty common at 28 lbs or so. The super rare ones everyone scrambles after are the 38 lb ones from the NA 5cyl.

However, thats still a pretty good deal. Flywheel alone is usually 50-100 bucks from yards.

winmutt · #65 09-01-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

The super rare ones everyone scrambles after are the 38 lb ones from the NA 5cyl.

They are available from MB, so not too rare.

Stretch · #66 09-01-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

if its a 240 flywheel, while a wonderful thing

, those are pretty common at 28 lbs or so. The super rare ones everyone scrambles after are the 38 lb ones from the NA 5cyl.

However, thats still a pretty good deal. Flywheel alone is usually 50-100 bucks from yards.

Indeed - not quite right - but still a good deal...

...especially for someone who wants a manual in their OM616...

How about adapting these lighter flywheels to be as heavy as the rare one?

All I'm thinking is that if they are so expensive and rare in the US why not add weight and re-balance? Would that push the cost past the cost of the real thing?

(I guess here they'd want at least 3000 Euros for something like that - but in a country with more sensible labour rates...)

winmutt · #67 09-01-2011, 11:29 AM

FW is $600.

lutzTD · #68 09-01-2011, 12:37 PM

it will go round and round and finally end on a BMW type getrag 265, the shifter is similar to the MB, the drive output is identical, all you gotta do is modify the bell and throwout, or cast a new bell. the 265's are on the bay all the time for $300, and I see them in the yards about 6-10 units a year. It was used in AMG's of the same vintage as our cars. if there was enough interest a cast bell could be viable around $400-600 but it would take a larger commitment of buyers to make it worth while. it would be a much better solution than an adapter to another makers trans and probable still way better than the adapte to the later MB 5spd. pony up 25 guys who will front the cash and we can get the ball rolling

winmutt · #69 09-01-2011, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD

it will go round and round and finally end on a BMW type getrag 265, the shifter is similar to the MB, the drive output is identical, all you gotta do is modify the bell and throwout, or cast a new bell. the 265's are on the bay all the time for $300, and I see them in the yards about 6-10 units a year. It was used in AMG's of the same vintage as our cars. if there was enough interest a cast bell could be viable around $400-600 but it would take a larger commitment of buyers to make it worth while. it would be a much better solution than an adapter to another makers trans and probable still way better than the adapte to the later MB 5spd. pony up 25 guys who will front the cash and we can get the ball rolling

How is the shifter similar? Totally different. But they are very common at the JY. I eye balled a few as a w123 solution.

SirNik84 · #70 09-01-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

How is the shifter similar? Totally different. But they are very common at the JY. I eye balled a few as a w123 solution.

I was thinking the same thing. Did a little research just now and I can't seem to come up with any 5 speeds that have external shift linkages. lots of 4 speeds... It seems to me that that auto industry switched to internal shift linkages as the same time they introduced 5 speeds.

greazzer · #71 09-01-2011, 02:09 PM

My .02 worth

1. Many folks say the Getrag 717.400 is common enough to just go out and buy one. However, looking at the threads over the years, folks are actively searching for one for extended periods of time. Thus, what is a rough guess as to the universal supply & demand?
2. Is this really as simple as casting a new bell housing? If so, need one really good bell housing to make the mold. Although the first one would be pricy, making 100+ would probably cost about $200.00. So, amortorizing the costs still make this a cheap solution for a 5 speed. That is why I ask the universal supply and demand question since this will drive the price. The more produce drives the first unit costs down over the production. Is it just the bell housing ? Who will donate one for the mold ?

Overall, GREAT idea

lutzTD · #72 09-01-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

How is the shifter similar? Totally different. But they are very common at the JY. I eye balled a few as a w123 solution.

I will try to hunt up a picture, but I will try to describe why I say it is similar. The BMW transmission has a single rod sticking out the back above the output. this connects with a compliant joint to a shaft which then connects to a shfter that is mounted to the tunnel and a simple bracket. you can place the shifter 6 inches or 6 feet behind the transmission by simply adjusting the length of that one rod and the bracket

heres a link for a picture

http://www.firstfives.org/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=2295

frankengrant · #73 09-02-2011, 04:03 AM

Subbed, great thread, very interested

75Sv1 · #74 09-02-2011, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

My .02 worth

1. Many folks say the Getrag 717.400 is common enough to just go out and buy one. However, looking at the threads over the years, folks are actively searching for one for extended periods of time. Thus, what is a rough guess as to the universal supply & demand?
2. Is this really as simple as casting a new bell housing? If so, need one really good bell housing to make the mold. Although the first one would be pricy, making 100+ would probably cost about $200.00. So, amortorizing the costs still make this a cheap solution for a 5 speed. That is why I ask the universal supply and demand question since this will drive the price. The more produce drives the first unit costs down over the production. Is it just the bell housing ? Who will donate one for the mold ?

Overall, GREAT idea

Basically, the model is going to cost about $10K. Then each casting after that $200 each. It might be cheaper through other supply lines.
Tom

greazzer · #75 09-02-2011, 07:06 AM

$10K ? Having never made one of these, this may seem out of line, but one can get an aluminum head for way under that, under $1,000 and that is for a production run under 10 where the universal supply and demand is incredibly limited. My guess is that a head is much more complicated than a bell housing. Assuming the costs are much lower, is there anyone out there able to advise if the bell housing is the major factor / major part?