A Little noise, then no clutch

[Stevo]

I'm coming to a stop sign, put the clutch in to shift down. hear a little noise like something breaking, and no more clutch, wont release. This is my 85 Euro TD. Clutch feels normal when I put it in, like the slave is pushing on the release bearing arm but it doesn't release. I pulled the slave and an assistant mashes the clutch and the push rod comes out I poke a screw driver in the hole, release arm seems to be there. I know I'm going to have to pull the tranny, any ideas about whats going on??

[charmalu]

The Slave cylinder pushes the release lever which shoves the release bearing (throw out bearing) forward on the trans input shaft, which pushes against the presure plate fingers (springs) which seperates it from the clutch disk.

I could be the fingers on the PP broke, or the clutch disk failed.

I had the fingers on my Datsun PU get weak to the point where it wouldn`t let the PP move back enough, and there was enough drag that the gears would grind shifting.

I also had a piece of metal break off next to one of the 6 small springs in the clutch disk. pushing in the clutch peddle did absolutly nothing. 65k miles and the disk looked new.

I did the 4-spd swap in the 85 300D a couple year back. Long story, but I removed the trans to swap in another 4-spd. couldn`t get the shaft back into the clutch. finally removed the clutch assembly, and the Pilot bearing had fallen out. putting it back together, I noticed a rattle with the disk. 2 of the 6 coiled springs had broken. this was after 22K miles.

I usually get long like with my clutches, over 100K + miles.


How many miles are on this clutch? really sucks when it just craps out while driving.

Charlie

[kerry]

Absolutely no idea. I'm curious as to what you find.

[Stevo]

I dont know how many miles on the clutch, I've only had this car for a couple years. This seemed to me like such of an odd way for a clutch to die. I hate those problems where you take things apart and cant figure out what happened, but I'm hopping this will be obvious. I am thinking of just pulling the engine and tranny and fixing the leaking bottom plate on the IP and the leaking steering box and oil filter housing gasket.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Stevo

I dont know how many miles on the clutch, I've only had this car for a couple years. This seemed to me like such of an odd way for a clutch to die. I hate those problems where you take things apart and cant figure out what happened, but I'm hopping this will be obvious. I am thinking of just pulling the engine and tranny and fixing the leaking bottom plate on the IP and the leaking steering box and oil filter housing gasket.

I'm betting on a broken pp finger.

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I'm betting on a broken pp finger.

I will pull the tranny maybe this Wed and see whats going on. It sure seems strange the way it died, A little metallic breaking noise, and no clutch release,
OK, I'll put you down for "broken pp finger"

[tankowner]

I'll guess that either a finger broke off the pressure plate, or your TO bearing is hosed. This is just based off my personal experience, but it sounds familiar: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/261712-some-mangled-clutch-components-question.html

Good luck, I hope I'm wrong and it's really something simple.

[charmalu]

That is an interesting thread. no closure to it, did you finally get the 240 back up and running? Did you turn the Fw? and i assume you got a new Disk?

Charlie

[tankowner]

Originally Posted by charmalu

That is an interesting thread. no closure to it, did you finally get the 240 back up and running? Did you turn the Fw? and i assume you got a new Disk?

Charlie

Charlie, I am terrible when it comes to finishing threads. Some day I plan to go back through the ones I started and post come closure comments.

To answer your questions . . . . I did not remove the flywheel, but I did replace all of the other clutch components and the slave. Flushed all the fluid (brake and tranny) and did a bunch of other work on the '83 before I put it on the road as my daily driver. Drove it for about 3 or 4 months before I nailed a deer on my way home from work about a month ago. Insurance considered it a total loss but much to my surprise gave me a really nice valuation on it. I hated to let it go, especially with all the new parts I slapped on it, but I didn't have the time to repair it. The '83 is gone now, but I have replaced it with a '79 240D . . . probably have to replace the clutch in it someday, at least I'll know what I am doing next time round.

[charmalu]

Originally Posted by tankowner

Charlie, I am terrible when it comes to finishing threads. Some day I plan to go back through the ones I started and post come closure comments.

To answer your questions . . . . I did not remove the flywheel, but I did replace all of the other clutch components and the slave. Flushed all the fluid (brake and tranny) and did a bunch of other work on the '83 before I put it on the road as my daily driver. Drove it for about 3 or 4 months before I nailed a deer on my way home from work about a month ago. Insurance considered it a total loss but much to my surprise gave me a really nice valuation on it. I hated to let it go, especially with all the new parts I slapped on it, but I didn't have the time to repair it. The '83 is gone now, but I have replaced it with a '79 240D . . . probably have to replace the clutch in it someday, at least I'll know what I am doing next time round.

Ok, you`re forgiven now.

I think you posted hitting a deer a while back. or maybe it was wome one else. I always fear hitting one, we have them around here to. shame to loose another 123 from the inventory.

too bad you are so far away, I would have bought it from you.


In my Datsun FSM, they show a way to measure the diaphram fingers on the PP. they have a tool for bending them back to spec. Iam not so sure I would want to do that if I have to pull the clutch after 100,000 + miles for any reason. first one I removed was after 121K when it would grind shifting. disk still looked as food as the new one from the box. although the springs on the Disk were worn and rattling, the lining was good.

Charlie

[Beagle]

Originally Posted by Stevo

I'm coming to a stop sign, put the clutch in to shift down. hear a little noise like something breaking, and no more clutch, wont release. This is my 85 Euro TD. Clutch feels normal when I put it in, like the slave is pushing on the release bearing arm but it doesn't release. I pulled the slave and an assistant mashes the clutch and the push rod comes out I poke a screw driver in the hole, release arm seems to be there. I know I'm going to have to pull the tranny, any ideas about whats going on??

A couple of possibilities...

1)About 6 months ago I received a phone call from a friend with a 123 300D. He was stranded with no clutch and described the symptoms exactly as you did. I towed him home and pulled the tranny when I'd established it was nothing external. What I found amazed me. The slave push rod had worn right thro' the release lever leaving a clean 8mm hole! The push rod has a 10mmØ collar about 15mm from the dome end which caught in the hole but now not enough travel to release clutch though it felt normal. I welded a small piece of gauge plate over the hole and hardened it (the original lever is case hardened) - he's had no problem since.

2) I pulled the tranny on my own car to replace an oil seal some time back - lucky I did! The release bearing had just about worn right through the pressure plate springs leaving a cluster of thin razor sharp fingers - another week or so and it would have pushed right through. There were no symptoms or warning this was about to happen. The incorrect release Brg. had been fitted - should have been the later self-centering type. There are 2 or 3 different pressure plate/release brg. combination's(at least).

There is some good news if this is the case. The Sachs pressure plate from MB agent is,for some obscure reason, unbelievably cheap +/-$80! The Clutch plate on the other hand, around $250.

[t walgamuth]

Interesting story about the rod and lever.

The pp fingers get worn through so re-bending them does not seem like an option to me.

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by Beagle

A couple of possibilities...

1)About 6 months ago I received a phone call from a friend with a 123 300D. He was stranded with no clutch and described the symptoms exactly as you did. I towed him home and pulled the tranny when I'd established it was nothing external. What I found amazed me. The slave push rod had worn right thro' the release lever leaving a clean 8mm hole! The push rod has a 10mmØ collar about 15mm from the dome end which caught in the hole but now not enough travel to release clutch though it felt normal. I welded a small piece of gauge plate over the hole and hardened it (the original lever is case hardened) - he's had no problem since.

2) I pulled the tranny on my own car to replace an oil seal some time back - lucky I did! The release bearing had just about worn right through the pressure plate springs leaving a cluster of thin razor sharp fingers - another week or so and it would have pushed right through. There were no symptoms or warning this was about to happen. The incorrect release Brg. had been fitted - should have been the later self-centering type. There are 2 or 3 different pressure plate/release brg. combination's(at least).

There is some good news if this is the case. The Sachs pressure plate from MB agent is,for some obscure reason, unbelievably cheap +/-$80! The Clutch plate on the other hand, around $250.

That scenario fits the symptoms very nicely, no warning, just a little noise, then no clutch although the push rod (fairly new master and slave) is doing its thing, thanks. We have a couple of theories now and tomorrow, hopefully, the mystery will be solved.

[rs899]

I had one of those inside springs on the clutch disc pop out on my VW Rabbit truck years ago and stopped me dead in the water. I don't know if that would stop a 240D though, as the design of the flywheel on a VW is very different.

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by rs899

I had one of those inside springs on the clutch disc pop out on my VW Rabbit truck years ago and stopped me dead in the water. I don't know if that would stop a 240D though, as the design of the flywheel on a VW is very different.

Right on, it was one of those little springs in the clutch disc, that came adrift. Looked like the original clutch so shes getting new disc, PP, pilot bearing, release bearing and the FW resurfaced.