You are assuming that Mobil can actually get a license to use an obsolete rating on their oil bottle. Nothing says that the API is willing to give a license for a lube spec that is self-claimed to be obsolete.

So it is (1) dollars, to be used on a spec that how much of the market cares about? Remember, any HD diesel users are going to buy a real API CJ-4 or current spec commercial oil, and folks with recent diesel engines in passenger cars do not align to the definition of CF, so they wont care about it. The number of people actually looking for API CF is so small that they dont actually register, and (2) youre assuming that the API is willing to provide an API CF certification when they claim themselves that the spec is obsolete and has been superseded. This is exactly the same as how GM is no longer giving Dexron III licenses and only licensing Dexron VI. Any ATF that meets Dex III is self-claimed the way Mobil says that 0w40 meets API CF. There is no active governance over it, and it is why the term Dexron III cannot be used, which is why those ATFs are now called dex/merc or D/M.

Again, M1 0w-40 DOES hold diesel ratings for applications that the oil is relevant for, namely the ACEA B licensing as well as the manufacturers' sheet ratings, all too of which cost money to obtain.

The add packs for API "S" Service applications are indeed different than those for API "C" Commercial applications, in their current forms. I dont know how to tell you that any different. An API CJ-4 in, say, 5w-40 is entirely different from the chemistry of the adds than, say an API SN in 5w-40. And it goes from there.

Some oils, really the diesel oils, do carry, say CJ-4 and SM or SN, but these generally do not carry the manufacturer specifications for passenger vehicles, and most passenger vehicles lately have been dropping in viscosity requirement, which makes more of a misalignment.

Its a complex thing, and if M1 0w-40 met API SN and CJ-4, Im sure they would license it that way. Again the add packs are different and the markets are different, and whether it meets CF or not (which they claim it does) is somewhat moot because it isnt what the consumer is looking for.

And I wouldnt personally want a CF oil when additive tech has moved forward a great deal and you can get a better oil in an API CJ oil.

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

Didn't intend to open a debate on oil. Mobil 1 0w40 meets both MB229.3 and MB229.5 oil specifications and is listed as so on container.

I think this is an outstanding oil for properly tuned mercedes diesel engines produced in last 30 years. I've extended my oil change cycles to every 7500 miles.

If agreed, at $38/case after rebate and including free delivery, it is a good deal:

Link to Mobil 1 0W40

__________________
-- Chris

'95 E300, 216k miles, Silver Surfer
'05 E320 CDI, 138k miles
'07 S550 4matic, 69k miles

Gone but not forgotten:

'76 300D, 350k miles?, SOLD in 1995
'75 240D, 300k miles, SOLD in 1991

No it's a good discussion. Nobody debates the goodness of M1 0w-40, IMO it is one of the best readily available oils on the market. I run it in two of my vehicles.

The main consideration is if API CF, which is an obsolete diesel spec, is the optimal rating for an MB diesel, and also if MZb carries any diesel spec more current.

I personally believe that for IDI diesels, where soot control and dispersion is issue #1, a purpose-suited engine oil formulated for diesels where soot-related wear control and cleanliness in EGR diesels is the main design point is a good fit for our cars.

It's not like you can't get a good syn diesel spec oil, so why not???

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

I try not to assume- but Mobil's own site which you linked lists diesel oils and gasoline oils. All the diesel oils- current and obsolete- start with a C rating. Non diesel oils do not start with C. If the 0-40 oil has the dual approvals- both current- why not list them as they have in the past? 0-40 does not have a C rating.

Can you quote via cut and paste the MB spec and which engine exactly fit this spec? Thanks!

No, your assumption is that the API Service category - S for Service, C for commercial, is the be all, tell all licensing mark that states exactly what the oil will do.

ACEA B3 IS a diesel rating. It is a european licensing body, just like the API. There are also manufacturers specification sheet ratings like 229.x, or VW 505, which authorize the oil's use in diesel passenger car engines. M1 0w-40 CAN be used in certain diesel applications. Is it the best for all, particularly older IDI diesels, IMO no way, and Id rather use a purpose-built diesel oil that is designed for the conditions of interest.

The API designations are kind of hazy, which is why I think youre getting confused.

ACEA is easier - A is passenger gasoline engines, B is passenger diesel engines, C is passenger vehicles with enhanced aftertreatment devices (like DPFs) and E is commercial diesel engines. The numeric designation, e.g. A1 or A3 or A5 has to do with the service designation for fuel economy, high performance or long drain oils. So since M1 0w-40 hits ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4, it holds the designation for high performance (high HT/HS viscosity retention) use for A gas and B diesel passenger vehicles.

Mobil's site does list all their products. Plenty of the API C-rated oils also hold an S-rating that is NOT an obsolete rating, i.e. either SJ, SL, SM or SN. Notice that they dont list API SF on there, right?

Again, dont know how else to tell you this, API CF is an OBSOLETE rating. Mobil themselves on the 0w-40 page I linked clearly stated that MOBIL, NOT the API states that the oil is suitable for CF. This does not mean that the API provides licenses for CF. It means that mobil believes the oil would pass the CF rating criteria if it were to obtain that license (which it CAN NOT because it is obsolete). M1 0w-40 would NOT meet API CJ-4 which is the current commercial engine spec, for a reason that I do not know (and may be due to the cost of the battery of OEM tests that it would need to do, but likely has more to do with the balance of TBN and dispersant adds in the oil), it does not directly meet a current API C designation, so it cannot show it.

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

The test criteria for the spec are published in multiple places. Search for Afton Lube Spec Handbook 2012, download it and pull the test specs for yourself. I told you the diesel specific tests that MB mandates for the 229.x series approval previously. The criteria vary per designation.

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

I don't mean to be argumentative- but this question was for the person which listed this- and I've asked before over at BW to someone which made the same claim. Back up the claim and cut and paste the part which they say it states that. I don't know where it is.

Mobil still lists oil as they do- and all diesel oil start with a "C". What part of that is confusing to anyone? 0-40 does not start with a "C". I don't live in Europe and I could care less about if CF is obsolete. The discussion is about 0-40 and using it for all diesels; at least that is what I think we are talking about. Maybe it's approved for euro diesels. IDK. I don't see that it's approved for diesels here in the USA.

Well, given that it holds a 229.x specification, some MB diesels may utilize that specification for oil selection. I bet some digging on the bevo site might indicate as much.

M1 0w-40 is not for use in ALL diesels, I never said that and I would advocate against it.

M1 0w-40 is a diesel-spec oil for SOME passenger car diesels where the specs align, e.g. MB 229.x, VW 505, etc. So some late model non-DPF MB and VW TDI engines in the USA could well spec this oil.

If youre shopping for a CF oil, youre shopping for an obsolete oil. Why would you want to do this? CJ-4 is the current diesel spec.

Owners of IDI MB diesels would be better off running an API CJ-4 oil then running Mobil 1, besides the TDT variant, because of the more diesel-suited add pack. I have been saying this all along.

Of the documatation that I have with my cars, this is the only one that specifies oils by make and manufacturer, like the bevo site does today:



It is from my 1981 240D owners manual. You will notice that most of these oils are HDEOs. In a recent discussion with Doug Hillary, who has been involved with the HD truck industry as well as european manufactuers in Australia since the 1950s, he stated that due to poor add packs and lube designs, Euro manufactuers typically specified HD engine oils for their engines. The document I just showed supports this point.

Here is the service guidance for MB vehicles from back then:



These days OCIs can be extended based upon TBN retention and soot loading, but 7500 miles for an older IDI design is a good max duration, IMO.

If you go here:

Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids: Engine Oil, Gear Oil, ATF, Coolant, Brakefluid

You can pull down all the MB literature and approved oils available worldwide to meet various specs. FYI sheet 223.2 gives the current engines that MB warranties and their required specifications. Sheet 224.1 gives the current viscosity-temperature chart.

Because the current 223.2 doesnt include the older engines, I pulled one from 2006, which gives some coverage. So here you go:



And here is an example of it specified in the USA:



But again, for the older IDI engines where soot control is the greatest concern, why wouldnt you want the latest diesel-spec oil, since it WILL do the job better. For a 210 or newer diesel, I might not worry much - the sooting rates are much lower and then you hit common rail and higher pressure injection and all that good stuff. And remember again that CG-4 and CF-4 are obsolete specs, superseded by CI-4 and CJ-4, which are the current correct specifications, which are what Id be looking for in an older IDI first and foremost, even before the 229.x. The beautiful thing is that when you buy a mainstream CJ-4 diesel oil, they typically also carry 228.3, so you hit all bases and it is the right choice!

But since MB allows 228.x spec oils, which is what the API CJ-4 HD diesel oils now spec, and which are the lineage of the original intent for lube spec per what I showed above, I see no reason but to run a HD diesel oil in most any earler MB diesel. I prefer synthetics, and that is what I run in my 240D and 300CD, as I did in my 300D before that.

Hope this gives some closure to your request.

(sorry for putting my handle on all the pics, but my images are getting used in places that I am not putting them, which is eating up my photobucket account free bandwidth.)

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

MB USA recommends a 229.3 or 229.5 oil for all engines, both gasoline and diesel, pre-1997: page 3 (of 30, page is numbered 2) of
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/9511/?requestedDocID=9511

Screen capture of the above, in case you can't open it (I can't open it here in Firefox, but can in Opera):
http://i46.tinypic.com/2aetkbk.png

Complete list of all oils which meet 229.3:
MB 229.3 - Multigrade engine oils (Specification 229.3) - Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids

--which meet 229.5:
MB 229.5 - Multigrade engine oils (Specification 229.5) - Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids

So if MB doesn't approve of my engine oil does this mean they're going to void my warranty?





... oh wait, what year is this?

__________________
CENSORED due to not family friendly words

The problem with your second link which appears to be the crux of the issue is the MB 229.3 data sheet- which both of you say includes all engines by MB- gas and diesel. Yet MB itself says to use different oils for the diesels and the gas engines- why the insistence on a diesel engine using a oil listed specifically for gasoline use? Spec 229.3 does NOT say any oil on that list is suitable for ANY engine which MB manufactures.
I'm also not sure where this suggestion came up that I was looking for a CF oil. ???
This is a oil thread but my gist is simple- if you have a diesel engine use a diesel oil. In the USA that means a "C" rated oil. Non diesel engine oils do not have the capacity for soot loading that a diesel oil has. Mobil 1 0-40 is not a diesel rated oil. If you want a 0-40 rated oil use the turbo diesel 0-40 if you can find it.

We are in violent agreement with that - for IDI engines in W210 and earlier cars, run an API CJ-4 oil. Optimally, one that holds MB 228.3 specification so that all bases are covered.

I dont get why you say that MB is recommending different oils for different engines. They may recommend different oils in the 229.x range, but ALL engines, gas and diesel get whichever 228.x or 229.x oil that is aligned to the engine type. Done, period. I see that they imply that they want the ACEA and API specs too, but my read on it is that the MB sheet and then ACEA trump API in that order.

228.x and 229.x are gas AND diesel specifications.

Note the MB language - API classification is second best to MB sheet and/or ACEA spec.

But totally agree that for these engines CJ-4 should be used.

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

I say that because MB says that. The link shows approved oils- but nowhere does it say ALL OILS are approved for ALL ENGINES.

In this link it shows that diesel engine and gasoline engines have different approved oils. BOTH gasoline engines and diesel engine are listed in the 229.3- which showed approved oils- but that does not mean all oils are approved for all engines. Nowhere does it say that nor imply it. Quite to the contrary.