Turbo install on my 300E - Page 14 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

300EVIL · #**196** 04-25-2005, 07:36 PM

Hi leighton,
Actually it's not a stupid question. Your reasoning makes sense, since their both Mercedes engines and they both have equal displacement, the diesel turbo should work on the gas engine. In fact it would work,, however, not very well. You see, a diesel engine does not move as much air as a gasoline engine due to it's lower RPM range and high compression ratio. Since a gasoline engine of the same displacement flows more air, the diesel turbo would only be good for the bottom end of the rpm range. The turbo I pieced together is completely matched to the M103's rpm range and air flow. This will give me "the best bang for my buck" through a large portion of the M103's RPM range. As is the diesel's turbo is matched and will give great boost and flow for it's corresponding RPM range. You can see where I was at the beginning of this thread. I have learned A LOT about turbocharging since then. I would highly suggest getting a book on turbocharging if you plan to turbo your 300CE. These M103/104's (I don't know what you have in yours) seem to be great candidates for turboing due to their extremely well engineered parts. Every master engine builder I show the parts of this engine to are thoroughly impressed with the design and engineering. From what I see, so am I. Feel free to email me if you have any questions on your project, I will be glad to help. Also I plan on offering a kit when my engine is done. You may want to wait for that if your interested in getting up to the 400hp range. I'm not looking to make much money on the kit and it will save you from all the crazy math and hours involved. Let me know if your interested.
Good Luck!
Adam

Badinfo · #**197** 04-25-2005, 08:02 PM

The turbo from a diesel would not be a good match for a gasoline engine. The diesel turbos are designed for low rpms and will literally run out of boost as revs climb.

300EVIL · #**198** 04-30-2005, 01:44 PM

Here's a pic of the main parts of the air-to-water intercooler system. Ths robust system is capable of handling up to 550HP. All three items were purchased seperately on ebay. The long radiator is a used oil cooler that was pulled from a NASCAR race car. It will be mounted under the bumper behind the air dam. The pump is a 20GPM marine bilge pump used by many as an intercooler water pump. The Spearco intercooler is brand new and I believe it was part of a kit. The whole system will be independently run by a microprocesser based controller and use temp probes and injector duty cycle to control the operation of the pump.

H2O2 · #**199** 05-01-2005, 04:57 PM

Nice L2A setup there. I may eventually opt to replace my A2A setup with one of those later on, given the tight mounting/plumbing constraints in the 124 chassis. I mounted a small FMIC, but as you can see here , the stock bumper cover needs to be hacked up, which doesn't look great. I'd definitely prefer the shorter plumbing of an L2A too. Are you considering augmenting your charge air cooling with water injection to further control detonation? That theoretically would allow you to keep an advanced timing curve and higher boost pressures. www.aquamist.com

300EVIL · #**200** 05-01-2005, 10:26 PM

Hi Hydrogen Peroxide,
Yeah, I went with the L2A setup to save space that a FMIC and piping would take up and shorten the distance from the turbo to the intake manifold. Plus, the fact that it's a much more efficient cooling system as well. I am not planning on using any anti-detonation equipment such as Aquamist.... And, especially not planning on using my engine for any horticulture experiments!! www.aquamist.com

Kidding, I know what you meant. www.aquamist.co.uk

I don’t believe I will have any detonation problems since I am running 8:1 compression and I don’t plan on pushing the boost to the limits, we will see though. Where can I find info on your turbo TE ?!?!?! I would love to read about what you have going on.
Thanks!
Adam

H2O2 · #**201** 05-02-2005, 12:12 AM

...he he he, guess I should test my links before I pass them on--you got the right one.

That wagon is a turbodiesel TD--just piddling around with the stock turbo and injection pump, hoping to bump hp up from 148 to ~180. Turned up the fuel quantity this evening, but one of the charge air tubes blew off while testing my first 0-60 mph reading. The seat of the pants-meter told me it was a significant torque improvement while I had full boost (~11psi).

Sounds like we're both reaching for the same HP figures with our ongoing projects. I eventually plan to modify the injection pump with larger 7mm plunger/barrels and add a Holset 35/40. The Finns have routinely dyno-ed OM603's in that configuration at around the 400-450hp range. Sounds like fun.

300EVIL · #**202** 05-02-2005, 08:26 PM

H2O2,
Wow, 450HP! I'm in, that will be my next project after or during my twin turbo 500E. I have always wanted a 300D and now I'm going to get one. Please keep me updated on you injection pump mods and what turbo you use. Also, If you need any help, just ask!

Here’s a pic of the mod I'm doing to the connecting rods. The sides of each rod will be ground flat and polished. This process will knock off a little weight (about .05 ounces) as well as strengthen the rod by removing pits and edges that can become stress risers. The rods in the pic show the three stages; stock, ground and polished. After this process the rods will be balanced by my performance engine machine shop and cryo treated. This process should take the stock rods capabilities from 75HP max to around 100HP max. Even though I don’t plan on running 600HP, this will leave me a nice 100HP or so safety margin.
Enjoy!
Adam

cam69ss · #**203** 05-05-2005, 08:44 AM

Anyone have installed pictures of the Mosselman twin turbo kit for either the 12V M103 or 24V M104 Engine?
There website does not show it and there is not much info on it like turbo size or instructions like labor time.
Thanks in advance

aNtHrAx323 · #**204** 05-08-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam69ss

Anyone have installed pictures of the Mosselman twin turbo kit for either the 12V M103 or 24V M104 Engine?
There website does not show it and there is not much info on it like turbo size or instructions like labor time.
Thanks in advance

I'm actually planning a turbo setup on my '88 300E (as well as a 5-speed conversion... I found an '86 300E being parted out and am currently in the process of negotiating for the transmission and pedal assembly, and possibly the hydraulics as well), and did some relatively extensive research on the Mosselman turbo kits. The most I found was that they used twin Garrett T25 turbos (no detailed specs unfortunately). I'm bookmarking this thread because I'm hell-bent on turbocharging my 300E. However, I must say that 450 hp is a bit hopeful on only 6 psi (the Mosselman kit pushes 6 psi on stock internals and squeezes just shy of 300 hp out of the 103, something like 320 out of the 104). I hope you're going a bit farther to achieve the 400+ mark

cam69ss · #**205** 05-09-2005, 10:43 AM

I have a new Mosselman twin turbo kit for sale that was designed for the 24V M104 engine.
Dan

EuroCoupe · #**206** 05-09-2005, 11:50 AM

Let me guess, you just bought it on ebay from Robert in Canada..?

dkveuro · #**207** 05-09-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300EVIL

H2O2,
Here’s a pic of the mod I'm doing to the connecting rods. The sides of each rod will be ground flat and polished. This process will knock off a little weight (about .05 ounces) as well as strengthen the rod by removing pits and edges that can become stress risers.

........................WARNING !........ WARNING !.... WARNING ...............

Leaving the rods polished is going to WEAKEN the rods. They need shot peened now before use to increase the surface strength you have removed by polishing off the cast/forged finish.

A draw back to rod polishing is the possible removal of any case hardening or other surface treatments that would have to be put back into the part once all the other process have been completed....
By polishing you are trying to remove any crack or pit that is potentially a stress riser.

This is not a cosmetic exersise. Shot peening with lead shot will restore the case hardening again.

______________________________________________________________

dkveuro · #**208** 05-09-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300EVIL

Hi leighton,.............................

Actually it's not a stupid question. Your reasoning makes sense, since their both Mercedes engines and they both have equal displacement, the diesel turbo should work on the gas engine. In fact it would work,, however, not very well. You see, a diesel engine does not move as much air as a gasoline engine due to it's lower RPM range and high compression ratio...........
Good Luck!
Adam

Unless the laws of physics have changed since I was last awake...this above statement is incorrect.

You would imagine, that due to the performance of a 3000cc diesel against a 3000cc gas engine, this was so.

In fact, a naturally aspirated diesel or gas motor of the same displacement will use the same amount of air......but.....because a gas engine is throttled, it will, in any performance range where the throttle is impeading the total power of the engine, the gas engine will use/consume less air.

It is true however, that the exhaust energy of a diesel is less than a gas engine of the same size.

Most passenger car diesel engines run 1000 rpm to 5000 rpm the same as most gas engines.
Larger 5.9... 6.2...6.5.. and up engines use 3000 rpm as an upper limit due to inertial loads inside the engine, typically the piston assembly.

This is more so in big rig engines that rev only to 1900 rpm.

My 17.5 ltr IVECO twin turbo V8 that I drove in 1985 to 1988 ran all the way up to 2600 rpm ...(I visited with an IVECO tech' in Italy who told me the off shore motors in the IVECO race boats only used different pumps and turbo's..the rest of the engine is factory stock and rev to 3000 rpm for 24 hours straight)......before I 'adjusted' the limiter/fuel stop on the pump.

This 48 tonne rated truck pulled 1150 rpm at 70mph....a theretical top speed of about 160 mph .

Anyways.....

300EVIL · #**209** 05-10-2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkveuro

........................WARNING !........ WARNING !.... WARNING ...............

Leaving the rods polished is going to WEAKEN the rods. They need shot peened now before use to increase the surface strength you have removed by polishing off the cast/forged finish.

A draw back to rod polishing is the possible removal of any case hardening or other surface treatments that would have to be put back into the part once all the other process have been completed....
By polishing you are trying to remove any crack or pit that is potentially a stress riser.

This is not a cosmetic exersise. Shot peening with lead shot will restore the case hardening again.

______________________________________________________________

Woops, Oh Yeah, I missed that step in my description. I fully planned on shot peening the rods as the last step before cryo treating.
Sorry,
Adam

300EVIL · #**210** 05-10-2005, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkveuro

Unless the laws of physics have changed since I was last awake...this above statement is incorrect.

You would imagine, that due to the performance of a 3000cc diesel against a 3000cc gas engine, this was so.

In fact, a naturally aspirated diesel or gas motor of the same displacement will use the same amount of air......but.....because a gas engine is throttled, it will, in any performance range where the throttle is impeading the total power of the engine, the gas engine will use/consume less air.

It is true however, that the exhaust energy of a diesel is less than a gas engine of the same size.

Most passenger car diesel engines run 1000 rpm to 5000 rpm the same as most gas engines.
Larger 5.9... 6.2...6.5.. and up engines use 3000 rpm as an upper limit due to inertial loads inside the engine, typically the piston assembly.

This is more so in big rig engines that rev only to 1900 rpm.

My 17.5 ltr IVECO twin turbo V8 that I drove in 1985 to 1988 ran all the way up to 2600 rpm ...(I visited with an IVECO tech' in Italy who told me the off shore motors in the IVECO race boats only used different pumps and turbo's..the rest of the engine is factory stock and rev to 3000 rpm for 24 hours straight)......before I 'adjusted' the limiter/fuel stop on the pump.

This 48 tonne rated truck pulled 1150 rpm at 70mph....a theretical top speed of about 160 mph .

Anyways.....

Woah There Bill Nye,
I may not understand the Diesel combustion process to a science. However I am still right and explained the whole situation in less words. Less air, less exaust,,, whatever. Gas big turbo, Diesel small turbo. End of story...