I posted the following in the tech section, but then thought I should've posted it here:
I have a 93 300E with Goodyear Regatta II tires that have only about 7,000 miles on them. The tires have been fine until I had them rotated and balanced. After this, the car pulled strongy to the right, the tires bounced (especially at freeway speeds) and my steering wheel vibrated. I had the position of the front tires rotated and this took care of the pulling.
They rebalanced the front wheels, but the mild tire bouncing and vibrating steering wheel remained. It reveals itself only at speeds above 60-65, and gets worse with higher speeds.
I have 15" 15 hole chrome wheels, and they were using the stick-on weights on the inside of the wheel. I read some posts on this site that explained how trying to balance wheels with only "inside weights" might not be the best method.
I had them rebalance the wheels again using clamp-on weights on the inside and outside of the wheels very reluctantly. They told me the weights would scratch the rims.
In any event, the tires still bounced and the steering wheel still vibrated. I went back, had them pull the wheels, and had them spin the wheels in the balancing machine with the weights on to prove to myself that they were balanced. And they were.
I took my car to my MB mechanic, and was told that warped front brake rotors can cause tires to bounce. The front rotors were warped so we changed them. It didn't solve the problem.
Is there anything I may be missing?
Are there tires that are just bad and can't be balanced?
I'm reluctant to go back for the 6th time and have the tries re-balanced when they appear to be "balanced" on their machine.
Should I get the tires replaced?
It's just uncomfortable and pisses me off to drive on the freeway with bouncing tires and vibrating steering wheel...

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

What tires did you have before the Goodyears?

They were also Goodyears, I think Eagle LS's.

The funny thing is, before the first rotation, there was no out of balance problem, and no pulling problem.

When the rear tires were moved to the front and rebalanced, the hard pulling occurred, and the balance problem surfaced.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

I had Goodyear Regattas and Regatta II's on my 300D. They were terrible. They wouldn't last long enough to have vibration problems. They kept blowing out sidewalls. Goodyear would not stand behind them. They said it was due to road hazards. I still can't figure out how they put the road hazards inside the tires, because the sidewalls were failing from the inside. Went across the street and got Bridgestones. No tire problems for two years now. I was getting the Goodyears fixed every 3 or 4 weeks or so.

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Palangi

2004 C240 Wagon 203.261 Baby Benz
2008 ML320 CDI Highway Cruiser
2006 Toyota Prius, Saving the Planet @ 48 mpg
2000 F-150, Destroying the Planet @ 20 mpg



TRUMP .......... WHITEHOUSE
HILLARY .........JAILHOUSE
BERNIE .......... NUTHOUSE
0BAMA .......... OUTHOUSE

I spoke to my buddy who is the head of quality control for Mitsubishi Motors U.S.A. He gets a number of customer complaints from owners of new Mitsubishi's who complain of out-of-balance tire issues, front end vibrations, etc., and usually the problem is bad tires. The technical defect is called 'RFV', or radial force variation - basically a soft spot in a radial tire. A tire has 360 degrees, 10-15 degrees of it may have a soft spot in the side wall, and everytime the tire rotates and hits the soft spot, there is greater flex in that area of the side wall, thus an out of round condition.
It can't be seen under visual inspection. It takes a very expensive machine to detect a bad tire.

I had the tires re-rotated back to the original position, and had the tires rebalanced (once again), this time using the "stick-on" type weights. I have the chrome wheels and the clamp-on type are reluctant to stay on.

I'll let the forum know what happens.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Thanks for the input everyone. Some of you have asked questions here and in the tech section.

My struts are original, but are not worn out and not leaking.

My wheels are the original 15 hole rims.

I spoke this morning again to my buddy, Jim, the director of quality control for Mitsubishi.

His job also requires working with the tire manufacturers. On the Mitsubishi Diamante's, they used to use Toyo and Yokohama's. He liked the performance and ride characteristics of the Yokohama's better, but said that both were good tires. He was recently forced to change to Goodyear tires, because they have a more "premium" image in the minds of consumers. He said they've had nothing but problems with Goodyear, in particular with the Radial Force Variation problem, flat spot problems that don't run out if the cars have been sitting in storage for too long, and a problem I believe he called 'kinesics' (sp.???) - where the tire does not track straight, in other words 'cone-shaped'. If you roll a cone-shaped object, it will not roll straight, obviously. This is what caused my pulling problem.

Another frequent problem they run into is technicians at dealers not operating the balance machines correctly. They have technicians who swear up and down they know what they're doing, been doing it for 30 years, and that the tires under warrantly are defective. Mitsubishi USA will send a quality control engineer to diagonose a problem or to assuage a consumer complaint, and find that the technicians are not operating the machine correctly. Usually they are not centering the tire correctly on the balance machine.

My buddy and I believe my specific tire problem is the Radial Force Variation problem.

BTW, I cross-checked the balance of my tires at Penske. After balancing the tires and applying the weights, I had them rotate the tires 90 degrees and re-check them in the machine. They all came up balanced.

I suppose I can plead my case to Penske that my tires are defective and that I want them replaced, but I'll still be stuck with these damn Goodyear Regatta II's.

No good solution.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Paul, I can sympathize....

"Another frequent problem they run into is technicians at dealers not operating the balance machines correctly. They have technicians who swear up and down they know what they're doing, been doing it for 30 years, and that the tires under warrantly are defective. Mitsubishi USA will send a quality control engineer to diagonose a problem or to assuage a consumer complaint, and find that the technicians are not operating the machine correctly. Usually they are not centering the tire correctly on the balance machine."

The fingers get pointed in all different directions and you still come up with a nasty vibration problem. I had this same exact problem using stick on weights and Continental CH95's.

Unfortunately, the vibration only went away with new tires and a high speed balance.

Hope it all works out.

The website for the Hunter GSP9700 Wheel Vibration Control System, http://www.gsp9700.com/ basically summed everything up. It's a fantastic website that I think everyone on this forum should visit.

Their website lists the many causes of wheel vibration:

1. Wheels out of balance
2. Wheel force variation (what I called Radial force variation)
3. Improper tire pressure and / or misalignment causing irregular tire wear which creates and amplifies imbalance.
4. Worn out steering and / or suspension components
5. Wheel to axle mounting error
6. Brake component (pads / disk) wear or failure
7. Drive train or engine component wear or failure
8. Vehicle component characteristics (a seemingly catch all category).

The site goes on to say that a good technician can diagnose any of the above problems, but the only way to rule out all wheel-related vibration is with the Hunter GSP9700 Vibration Control System.

The site shows a video demo of the machine at work. It's huge, much like Smog Diagnostic Equipment, with a large eye-level computer screen, a tire spinning motor, with a rolling cylinder that applies pressure to the tire as it's spinning.

I did a search of shops in my area that use this machine, and a handful of Big O Tire stores came up, along with the Mercedes Dealer (Penske) in Covina.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

There are many things that can cause the vibration which you are experiencing, some of which have been mentioned, some overlooked. So here's my take:
There are several areas that you should inspect for possible problems first.


#1.) Are the wheels HUB centric or LUG centric?
Lower quality aftermarket wheels are not designed to distibute weight onto the center hub of a car but, use the lug nuts or bolts to center the wheel and carry the load. Many times the wheel is not exactly centered with this type of wheel. Always get hub centric wheels which can use hub centering rings or be machined to fit exactly.
#2.) Tire balance
A balance vibration usually comes and goes at certain speeds.
#3.) Bent wheels

#4.) warped brake rotors
Usually only detectable when braking but, exteme conditions will vibrate continuously.
#5.) Worn suspension parts
Tie rod ends are the most common part to cause vibrations from this area and the wider front tires would make it more noticable. The easiest way to determine if this is the problem does the problem go away or change when slightly turning.
#6.) tires out of round
This is not very likely but, does occur accationally

This is where you need to start. I would think that you will discover the cause of your problem if you look into all of these things.

We only use the Hunter GSP9700 and it is an amazing balancer .... it will definitely be able to diagnose your problem

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Please, call me to place orders or for more info
use my name for on-line orders

Paul, thanks for the link but.... it's not working. I think you included an extra "," at the end.

Good Info.

Thanks for your reply, Luke.

To answer your questions:

1. My wheels are the original wheels, so this can't be the problem.
2. The tire balance could be bad, bud Penske Tires has balanced these about 10 times, and the vibration never goes away. It may be an operator error, or I need to use a better balancing machine, like the Hunter GSP 9700.
3. I don't believe the wheels are bent. In the life of the car there was never a balance problem, and with the previous tires there was no balance problem.
4. The front brake rotors were very warped, and I had them changed last weekend. I noticed I'm still getting a slight pulsating in the brake pedal, so the rear rotors must be slightly warped, but I can't imagine this could be causing the front tires to vibrate. Changing the front brake rotors really didn't affect the vibration at all.
5. I had my mechanic check the front suspension parts and struts, and everything looked fine.
6. The tires may by out of round, but I think I have a wheel force variation problem.

Thanks.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Well, I dropped my car off at the dealer this afternoon to get an alignment and a wheel balance.

I told them that I wanted a wheel balance on the Hunter GSP 9700 machine when I made the appointment, and was quoted about $70.00.

When I signed the service order, it read $180.00. I told them,"you've got to be kidding me. I was quoted about $70." They replied that a regular balance is $70, but the Hunter GSP 9700 is $180.

I'm not paying $180 for a wheel balance at the dealer, when a Big O Tires has the same machine and charges $10 per wheel.

I'm so disappointed, because I was very specific about what I wanted when I made the appointment. They even kept me on hold to confirm they had the machine.

I'll pick it up tonight and see what happens, but I'll tell you I'm not happy.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

I just got a call from the dealer. They couldn't align the car because I have a broken tie rod!

They're replacing it for $108, installed.

I guess this must've been causing my tire balance / vibration problem.

I've never heard of a tie rod breaking before. I've heard of them wearing out.

How could it break? In the middle, like a stick? Or could the 'axis joint' have broken?

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

I'd like to wrap this up and mail it.

You know, put it in a pan and bake it in the oven.

Picked up the car this morning, and everything was resolved:

1. I demanded to speak to a manger. The $180 quote I was given for the Hunter GSP 9700 force variation balance machine was wrong. The service manager didn't know where the numbnuts assistant got it. Besides, it's the only balance machine they use, he explained. I paid $59 for the wheel balance on the Hunter GSP Force Variation balance machine, $91 for the alignment, and $108 for a new left tie rod.

2. Yes, the tie rod was not broken, the end was worn out, and they couldn't properly align the car. The female assistant to the numbnuts service advisor used the wrong term. The tie rod wasn't broken.

3. The car tracks straight as an arrow, the steering has tightened up a bit, and the tires run as smooth as glass at 80 mph.

In retrospect, I think I have to admit the Goodyear tires probably weren't bad, they just needed to be balanced on the Hunter GSP 9700 to balance each specific tire to each specific wheel. Every tire / wheel combination is different. They let me look at the machine balance another customer's tire. The cylinder that is pressed against the tire exerts 1,400 lbs of pressure, simulating your tire against the road. It picks up all tire / wheel out of round conditions and corrects for it.

My vibration problem was surely a combination of a bad tire balance, and a worn out component (tie rod end).

Case closed.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Paul, glad to hear your results were satisfactory in the end

Enjoy the smooth ride and don't get any tickets