plantman, I forgot to add - this will not be easy on your part. Expect it to get a lot worse before it gets better. He will try you every step of the way - don't give in.

As far as zero-tolerance goes - some may feel like that the rules are too strict. The reason we have zero tolerance now is because of many people who think the rules don't apply to them. "I won't get punished because they wouldn't do that to me" or "I know so-and-so so when I get in trouble I will be able to get out of it" - the rules are there so that there are consequences for everyone - not just a few. The very ones that are arguing about zero tolerance would be the ones crying that the punishment is not severe enough if the shoe were on the other foot. I am not trying to start an argument or point fingers at anyone (a hit dog will holler) - but if your child were threatened by the person with the razor or the one that has been pressured to do pot or pills then you would be very upset if the offender only got a slap on the hand.

I hope so too. I also did worse, and am glad that when I did dumb things, the parties involved talked to my parents, and my parents dealt with me accordingly. No expulsions, no lawsuits... just my dad's "iron fist." I see your point... my reply would have been better suited in a new thread, I guess. No telling whether my complaints are really relevant in this case since we'll never know the whole story in this rubber band incident, probably.

BTW, sorry for helping to take this thread off-topic a bit. Plantman, hope your visit to the school went well. Please update as time permits, and good luck!

School Administrators are not immune to the whims and fancies of the people either. Yes, I can administer a school but chances are that it goes according to the rules laid out not the rules I want to have. The rules I want are only allowable IF they fall under the rules set out by my superiors who hae to respond to the idiocity of the public.

Even the mother admitted her kid shot the rubberband at the instructor. Now, what if the instructor was your wife and it took out her eye? Would you feel as chariatable towards the kid? I think there is a big difference between me tossing it on your desk vs me shooting it at you. Even the mother just about admited it was shot at the instructor except she is trying to mitigate it.

The problem is that the parents don't have the ability to discipline the kids. They run rampant. So, how much can an institute tolerate? If they start out with 1% sooner or later it will become a battleground because the parents cannot and willnot discipline the kids. I knew that when I screwed up, my instructors would give me a swat. Too many swats and I would go to the principal's office for a few swats. If that didn't work, I would be publically swatted in front of all my peers. That was if I was lucky. If Dad got involved, well..........

If it hit your wife or daughter in the eye and did some damage, would you be as forgiving or would you demand a blood sacrifice be made of the kid?

Another issue is that if you allow this level of disrespect to go on, will you be able to maintain discipline in future? Would you allow one of your subordinates to do that to you and keep his job? I wouldn't take it. Even if I did, the question would be "Where will it end". Maybe next time it will be a hot cup of coffee?

Oh, puhlease........ Not the old 'take an eye out with a rubber band' BS. How many rubber-band cyclops do you know? Anyone? Can we have a show of hands? The kid did something silly, maybe even stupid, but it was a far, far cry from criminal. Hell, I got in fight and threw another kids shoe through a classroom window in 2nd grade, and I didn't get suspended. I do recall my parents coming to school -- they were less than impressed that I managed to win the fight...

And therein lies the problem, doesn't it? Dear Old Dad. When Dad got involved, it got ugly and fast. I got stupid and tried to escape once and once only. I had the choice of geting caning on the hand or butt. I chose Door #3, run. Dad found a rubber hose and chased me with it. Got a few good whacks in too. Then I decided that it was better not to piss him off any further. In fact, while I thought he was an azzhole at the time, I now realize that I would be in the morgue or worse if he didn't.

However, today, Dad just shrugs it off and buys little Johnny an ice cream. Thanx to the midfux, punishments like sending the kid off without supper or a good tanning of the butt are viewed as child cruelty and abuse so all you can do is give him a time out and hope it is not too long.

Lets face it, we (general age of people on the board) are basically old school where the discipline was there. Today, it is not. Know what? I will not be a teacher of a high school unless there was some huge payoff in it because of all the issues that come with it. Kollege, maybe. High School, Not a chance.

Because of child abuse laws, you can't just go and haul off on your kids when they do something wrong! Heck YEAH, back when I was a attending a Catholic elementary school, the nuns had no qualms whooping your butt with a well-placed ruler (or the "Teacher Edition" geography book for the stouter of us). After that, the infraction got escalated to the principal, who then notified your parents. The beatings would continue once you got home!

It was certainly more of a motivation to tow the line than "groundings" or "time-outs", (though after the beatings, grounding followed).

Nowadays, ALL of us are forced to seek more pacifying methods of discipline, and the more errant of the youth population simply scoffs at what are generally pathetic attempts to enforce order. Teachers and administrators have no legal recourse to inflict corporal punishment for infractions, so the alternative is suspension or expulsion. Sure, it's extreme, but it then lays responsibility to the parents to come up with a course of action.

So answer the question, if it did damage to your eye or your wife or daughter, would you feel as forgiving. It might not take the eye out but damage can be done.

Also, another issue is that it shows a general lack of respect and discipline. If you won't make an example of this one, where will you make the stand? When the kid has a fist in your face?

You can't draw a rational analogy between the behavior of adults and children. Were you ever a child? Did you go to school? With other kids? I did -- in Chicago. Freshman year in HS, a kid blew up a teacher's car in the parking lot. Don't talk to me about rubber bands...

Boy, you had it easy then. Once you got home. My dad took the Principal's cane and started before he hauled me to the car by my ear. My offense was that I had a fight and stabbed someone in the arm with a pen. The principal nor my father was impressed by the fact that I won the fight and the pen didn't hit an artery.

I have seen kids that threaten to report their parents for abuse when they were warned that if they proceeded to holler and scream they would be grounded. And people wonder why there is a zero tolerance policy with the wonderful youth of the day.

Any assult on a teacher....period should be delt with by expulsion.....

And any teacher who physically assaults a kid....in anything but self defense, should be fired.

No teacher should be forced to deal with out of control or violent kids.............

Sure I was a child. I went to school in a different place. In Singapore, if I had yelled at my teacher, in my time, I would have a red imprint of their palm on my face. Ask me how I know and how long it takes to go away. Disagreements, yes. Rudeness or disrespect, NO.

I shot a rubber band at my teacher too. I got spanked by him, the principal in a public assembly on a stage in front of the school and by a stroke of luck, my parents weren't informed.

If the school and parents could have disciplined their kids BEFORE it escalated to car explosions, would it have led to that? Restitution had to be made and me and someone had to be punished in grade school for scratching an instructor's car. Maybe that was why I never blew it up. Because of the fear of what might happen if I did

Red Rider Rubberband Gun witha compass in the stock.

I have been spit on, cussed at, punched, threatened, etc. and very little has been done to the student because "it was a product of his/her disability" (keep in mind I teach behavior disordered children). The courts here won't touch a BD child because of possible repercussions.
Here a special education child can only be suspended for 10 school days. Any more and it is an infringement on his educational rights. If a special education child is expelled (which can only be approved by God) the district is responsible for providing his/her education.
Here in KY several years ago a student literally beat up a school bus driver in front of the other children. To my knowlege not a thing (other than suspension) was done to the child. Big deal. That tells me - abuse an adult and then you get several days off!

Something is wrong with the whole system. I believe it is because of a litigious society in which we live. So many people are afraid of what MIGHT happen that they can't (or won't) do the right thing ie: discipline their children (be it parents, teachers, administrators, juvenile justice, law enforcement, etc.). I have seen many teacher's careers and livelihoods destroyed because of false accusations made by students and parents. In all but one of those cases the students/parents were lying. Do you think that that will matter to the teachers who will always be known as "that teacher that molested that student" or "the teacher that slapped that kid"? It won't. I know there are the Mary Kaye Letourneaus and the other sickos out there.