I look forward to the day when affirmative action ceases to be beneficial.

slavery was called benificial......and both were horrible ideas.....

And just who might have called it that? Did the Cherokee's ever say "Hey, thanks for making us take that walk . . ."?

Benifical to one party at the obvious expense of the other....much like afirmative action. Both screw somebody by their very nature.

Hey, narwhal and mike - can we get an amen! to this one? I think so.

Dude, your in Hawaii!!!! Come on over to California, you'll see taint nobody got trouble getting by but "white" people, and we dont *****, we just get along and go elsewhere. The McDonalds, have all "hispanics" or whatever working there. The Weinerschnitzels, all Asian owned and usually operated, which seems strange to me? :D Panda Express, and driving ranges, same thing. Auto Garages and field workers, "latinos", i'll say it... most Blacks around here are on welfare or in jail/prison... Its a fact. Middle-Eastern people have taxi companies and own stores, and even the Mercedes-Benz dealership!!!, and the colleges are mostly mexicans too! Indians have their casinos and do real well. Nobody is being oppressed... You make your own life, unless you are lazy and need a crutch from the government. Im sick and tired of all these "world owes me a living" worthless whiners. Spend a week with me I'll give you a tour of exactly why not to support affirmative action. When you see the people it helps you dont want it to help anyone. In fact, there was a Hispanic scholarship given out a couple years ago, a white guy had to claim it because none of the hispanics qualified. Should these lazy people be rewarded for not doing anything but being something other than white? That sounds really dumb to me! You cant solve racial discrimination with racial discrimination!

Demorcrats try to convince their minority voters they need affermative action to be as good as everyone else....and never put minorities in positions of importance...

Republicans tell them they are equals and appoint them to positions of importance......

who really is the party of oppression.....here's the hint.....they still don't understand what the definition of having sex with someone really is.

I was in Oakland, taking the Cal Bar Exam, last month. Compared to when I first took a bar exam, I was struck by the diversity of the law students. Perhaps triple the number of women and minorities sitting for the exam. Affirmative action is still working. Being "color blind" doesn't make things "all good" until there is some leveling of the playing field.

BTW, minorities don't have a monopoly on being unmotivated. lazy, entitlement seeking slobs. I've also lived down in San Josie and seen my share of "trash" in various colors.

I just infuriated enough to speak my mind here!

But I'm typing this post while in prison for welfare fraud... :afro:

With some luck in about 100 years or so, there will be enough intermingling of races, that there will no longer be a true caucasian or latino or Asian or whatever.
Then again...some dope will probably find some lame reason to not like some part of the population, and the finger pointing will start all over again. :rolleyes:

It's been proven through the ages that humans tend to separate people by some sort of category, no matter what. Only through some natural or man-made threat, do we as humans rally together for the cause.

Take India. Under British rule, and Ghandi's relentless pursuit of independence, the population rallied for the cause. As soon as independence was granted, there was internal strife between the Hindus and Muslims.

Same goes for Iraq.

It's unlikely that this behavior will ever change...

I think we may need an alien invasion then, correct?
Then maybe the Democrats and Republicans will be able to have an intelligent conversation for once.

We could if the Democrats were willing to live in the real world...and stop dreaming things up all the time.

I sense you are a Republican, and that you need a cookie. :P

WHat kind of cookie? :D :D :D

this thread is making me hungery.....and maybe a raisin-chocolate cookie :pukeface:

I look at it this way. If I played with Anna K on the tennis court (love to play elsewhere with her), she'd hve to give me a hell of a handicap because I suck at tennis and she is way better than me. That is my take on AA. If you need it, you must suck and can't compete.

Sure, it will be hard to do without it. However, if you can prove your worth, the next generation will be better off. If we had done AA with Jap cars, I doubt they would be of the quality level they are today.

Why does anyone who has the cards stacked in their favor (AA) need to prove anything...becasue they just whine discrimination...when they didn't merit the job, school slot or whatever to begin with.

Is anyone arguing to RAISE the bar for Asian students because they are over represented (due to better than average study habits and discipline) I don't think so becasue thats earned and deserved...

and Likewise why should someone who as a groupe prefferes to party than study....why should they get special treatment to "Level" the playing field due to their below average study habits and discipline.

No racial groupe is geneticly inferior to another, yet AA acts like that is so.

Which is exactly why race is not the sole determining factor in affirmative action. The Michigan State University Supreme Court decision makes that very clear. But why let facts get in the way of your opinons. :rolleyes:

How about Oatmeal-scotchies....no raisins.....or penut butter-chocholate chip.... :D

WI still uses it. Hell, they got busted for photoshopping a photo of a black student in the crowd who never was there just to prove they are all represented.

In any case, race should not be a factor at all. Plain straight merrit. The policy should be "We take the top 1000 students and the rest will be rejected, no buts, ands or ifs." Now, if that is not a level playing field, I don't know what is.

Here is a question. As a minority, how am I to know if I earned that job, got into kollege or whatever by my own merrits or whether I was shoved in the back door? As a White man, how do I know that the person I am working with was actually the most qualified person? How am I to respect him and his achievements?

Also, as a patient, how do I know that doctor that is treating me is qualified because he passed thru the gauntlet? IOW, how do I know he is the best person to work on me? Why shouldn't I choose a white surgeon who had to work thru the legal discrimination as opposed to someone who was given a shove thru the back door?

THe Supreme court decided that but the Universities use the "other Factors" to keep up the same old behaviour. Becasue they didn't need them before...why now.

Where are those damn girl scouts when you need them...... :confused:

I saw a bunch of them in the mall yesterday. They were a little too young for my tastes but I believe they will be there selling their wares all week.

I didn't think this tread would go this far so I had alot of reading to do. Since you guys are on the topic of affirmative action I will tell you that I kind of like it....Rutgers has two major campuses which are located in Newark and New Brunswick. Newark has about 3k students and New Brunswick has about 15k I believe. The one that I attend in Newark, NJ is the most diverse school in the country. The one thing I like about it is that it is really tough and there just aren't too many students that can compete with me in class. Most people in my classes do not take school work too seriously probably because they are not paying for it out of their own pockets. As I am typing this I am taking a break from studying since I am paying the full amount out of my own pocket which is about 10k a year with books. Professors are really good with most of them being doctors that graduated from various prestigious schools around the country. Just to give you an example of how people do not care.....My last Micro-Economics exam only 4 people out of 100 got an A (I was one of them).

I just don't know what is wrong with people in my school but like I said "It is all about competition."

I don't follow. What has AA got to do with the situation you described?

Okay, I'm going to go against my general belief of government and propose a weak defense of AA.

I believe that majority, but not a large majority, of people in the USA at this time believe that merit alone should be rewarded. Most people don't give a flip about skin color as long as the job gets done. Most of us celebrate people who do well by their own merit. It wont be too far in the future before we have a non-anglo president because it just takes a majority of VOTERS to be swayed by a good speech, attractive appearance and lots of money. We have proven that winning combination for several generations. A shift in pigmentation is not far off.

However, there is a large minority of people who do not want non-anglos to succeed. Many of them will do whatever it takes to prevent non-anglo success. Laws against that behavior are strong and vigorously enforced. But guess what: behavior is awfully hard to enforce legally if it is not understood morally. And people who morally believe in anglo superiority do not consider discrimination and bigotry as immoral.

Yes I know, bigotry is not limited to white people. But white people are in teh majority and also have the most wealth and power. So white bigotry is much more venemous for those reasons alone.

So I believe that until a whole bunch of old farts from my generation finally die-off, there needs to be some way to give deserving poor minorities an extra boost.

I agree it is unfair and is unconstitutional and causes resentment to maintain AA. The sooner we get rid of it the better. But not yet. Get the folks 55 and up into retirement or dead and there will be no reason to hang onto those laws.

B

If you believe that, we must never get rid of AA because there will always be a minoroty that doesn't want them to succeed. Morality doesn't mean much in this world, or hadn't you noticed. Just a "feel good" word to justify some action or console oneself on why something was not able to be done, IMO. Go look at the sports teams. Is that representative of USA? I think not but you tell me. How did that happen? I suppose because some black people were such a bunch of lamebrains that sports was all they could possibly do and thus the NFL was created, I suppose? They were more black way back when before other institutes became integrated. Why? Because some of these black numbskulls had something shocking. TALENT. More and more came in because the talent couldn't be ignored. Talent never can be ignored for long. Sure, I can have my all white team but if that doesn't win on Sunday, my job is going to become endangered.

Read your last 2 sentences. See what you have forgotten? I do. By waiting for the old geezers to retire, you are growing more people with these ideas. As such, it will be a never ending cycle. Yes, if you stopped AA today, some people will fall thru the cracks. No doubt. However, IF they can prove themselves, they will become a force that will not be ignored. However, as long as they have the handicap, how will we ever know that they are a force to be reckoned with? Like I said, tell me how I can know that the black MD treating me is the most qualified? I would choose a white MD over a black MD because there is doubt. You can't deny that. Now, when my son goes to an MD, who do you think I will choose for him?

When we're truly "color-blind" then we should stop taking the medicine.

AA is ticking off enough people that would not otherwise have racial problems....AA is keeping people from being truely color blind by causeing grudges in people who would not otherwise hold one.

True, but perpetuating the existing power structure ticks people off as well. Pick your poison.

If these people whold quit bellyaching and get off their entitlement mentality...the opportunity is there....

Look at Aklim...english is not even his first language. AA just perpetuates a culture of poor study habits..and crying and whinning complaining that their personal laziness is somehow the fault of something that stopped over 150 years ago.

When AA stops and these lazy bums get off the streets and study like everyone else does...their problems end....AA isn't helping them its only hurting everyone else.

No different than being an enabler to an alcoholic.

I'm pretty good with geography, and I've never been able to find Caucasia either. ;) :D

Mike

Not even truly colorblind. I don't think that is possible. Just so we get it hammered into bone-headed nincompoops that everybody should be treated equally and fairly, resulting in the minority believing that there is fair play. IMO we are not there yet in the perceptions or actions of either the majority or minority. We sure as heck have come a long way since I was a kid and I don't think we have all that far to go.

IMO it is worth the infliction of injustice on the majority at this time. But I do appreciate that the laws, intentionally unfair to the majority and intentionally prejudiced in favor of the minority, should be challenged at every opportunity. Challenges are winning an increasing proportion of the time. That's a good thing, I sure as heck don't want those damned laws institutionalized into our society, an outcome sought by old-left minority groups.

In Singapore, Chinese spoke different chinese dilacts. However, I realized that if I want to be in some English speaking country for any length of time, it would behoove me to make English my first language or spend the rest of my life asking people to translate this that and the other for me. The choice was simple.

Giving bennies is easy, taking it away will always be harder. If we live to 150, I'll bet that it will still be there. How many years has AA been there? when will it change attitudes? More importantly, how will it change attitudes when I am constantly wondering if that black guy was really competent and beat out the competition for the job or whether he was shoved in the back door. If there was a surgeon working on a really delicate operation on you, would you chance the black surgeon who may or may not have been sneaked in the back door or would you go with the white surgeon who has a much smaller chance of getting via the back door in the dead of night? I know I would choose the white guy. Now, you are going to have to wait till I die off before attitudes like that will change. However, in the meantime, you are still cultivating people with doubts in their mind.

Forget the injustice part for a while. Let me know this: How do I know that the minority actually got in via his own merrits? If you stop AA today, would I trust all minorities immediately? Not a chance. Anyone that went thru the system is immediately suspect. It will take another generation before I believe what I see on paper. How will you correct that? With another generation? And anoteher one after that?

I spent 5 years living and working in Italy....I didn't speak two words of the language when I got there. I worked amoung Americans there...in one year I taught myself enough to be conversational level...I worked a rotating shift...class wasn't an option. I do well in the language but not as well are you do in ours. Due to the fact I had zero formal training in the language. I was self taught total immersion style where I basicly never spoke english outside of work hours as most of my neighbors spoke little if any English.

In that year I spoke more than every one of my other co-workers combined...In five years I was able to negotiate deals that the US government couldn't pull off with the locals.

I still have a legal right to Work in Europe.......courtesy of the old immigrations laws when I got married there in 1991. All I need to do is renew my work papers withing 48 hours of arriving in-country. I am elligible for Italian Citizenship....but there were and are reasons why it was not in my best interest to exercise them.

You don't know and neither does the applicant. Therefore both the minority and majority have a vested interest in being rid of AA. At some time in the not too distant future there will be a crossover point recognized by the minority. Every year that goes by, more minorities recognize this and more of them think it's time has passed. But they are still a small minority within the minority. I'll bet that when more or less half of the minority believe that AA is an unfair burden for everybody, then it will change. That will also require old fart minorty folks to die because they so clearly remember the injustice that they will be as unlikely to be rid of it's influence as a klan member.

Here's a bet: When 20% of blacks currently registered as Democrats change registration to Independent, Republican, or some third party, then AA will go away.

You're right. I don't know. But I know this. One has more chance of being sneaked in via the back door than the other. As such, I will choose the one that is less likely to be snuck into the back door.

If Aklim can do this AFTER learning our language without preferential treatment...then any of the lazy bums (minorities) who grew up speaking english and who whine about needing preferential treatment to compete would be better served by partying less and working harder. Learning a language well enough to get around in a new country and learning the language well enough to excell in a College enviroment are far different things.

Aklim is a prime example of what hard work can achive ........vs someone who wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.
I for one applaud Aklims hard work...having been in a simular situation I do fully understand his achievments.

Apparently its some region near the Caucasus mountains, between the black sea and caspian sea??? I'm not from there, I tell people that term offends me. Call me white, call me anglo, call me jacka$$ but Caucasian I am not :P

Same here...I'm German/Irish/Scottish Definately no relatives from the former Yugoslavia....