What do numbers do? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

djugurba · #31 08-12-2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

Following out the logic of that argument, doesn't it imply that nothing has existence per se? I'm happy to agree that all of linguistic creations, including number, are our creations, but I do want to say that something exists even if all our descriptions of what exists are less than absolute.

My point is that our language has zero causal bearing on the existence of anything. At the time of dinosaurs, there were no dinosaurs, because the contexts relevant to discussing dinosaurs did not exist. That does not mean that fleshy reptiles with feathers were not abounding on a steamy rock in the unstable milky way. Dinosaurs, our taxonomy of them, etc. are human contextual understandings (which, historically are often incorrect). It is true that 2+2 is always = 4, but only when humans are around.

I'm not arguing that fractals don't exhibit mathematical precision, or that crystal facets aren't at exact angles, etc... but that's not some underlying intelligent design math being discovered- it's our way of understanding what we observe. Is it hard to imagine a different system by which all of the observations we make can also be described? Think copernicus and ptolemy..

crash9 · #32 08-12-2005, 01:51 PM

I'm facinated by cycles in both time and price. There is no explanation, but there is an undeniable relationship to time price and the Fibonacci series. Interestingly when you measure across time and the price rise in equity markets since the 2001 lows you have a near perfict corection to the selloff of 2000. Much of this stuff influences price as traders with major money use these tecniques, so that they are a cause without any reason.
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fib.html

GermanStar · #33 08-12-2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djugurba

No, we look for a noun where we should be describing verbs. Things that go up come down, when considering things thrown up on revolving planets in orbit around other masses in space. There is no THING that exists that causes this to happen, it's more or less a characteristic of the totality of the circumstances.

According to string theory, there is absolutely a THING that causes this. It is called a graviton. Furthermore, since energy and mass are interchangeable, one is no more "real" than the other.

kerry · #34 08-12-2005, 02:40 PM

[QUOTE=djugurba]but that's not some underlying intelligent design math being discovered- it's our way of understanding what we observe. QUOTE]

But that understanding has some connection to what is there, it's not a complete fabrication. Something is being discovered. Ptolemy had some truth, but Copernicus was better.

crash9 · #35 08-12-2005, 02:45 PM

Kerry - I’m sure you’re familiar with the way numerology was used in the old religious writings. I’m certainly no authority, but many of the Persian people I know seem so schooled in it that they can just read things and understand the authors meaning by the numbers that relate to the words. No examples come to mind exactly, but it is almost like a hidden language that they are able to read. It's just not able to relate to an English translation, but only in the originals - they can read English relate that and get the numbers somehow. If you ever read the "Dawnbreakers" I think much of this is alluded too.

djugurba · #36 08-12-2005, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

According to string theory, there is absolutely a THING that causes this. It is called a graviton. Furthermore, since energy and mass are interchangeable, one is no more "real" than the other.

is a graviton deemed to have a concrete physical reality or merely a conceptual reality to give a way to understand goings-on? I'm not as well versed in string theory as I'd like to be. if this example fails, it doesnt defeat the original idea however.

djugurba · #37 08-12-2005, 02:53 PM

[QUOTE=kerry edwards]

Quote:

Originally Posted by djugurba

but that's not some underlying intelligent design math being discovered- it's our way of understanding what we observe. QUOTE]

But that understanding has some connection to what is there, it's not a complete fabrication. Something is being discovered. Ptolemy had some truth, but Copernicus was better.

Numbers only exist when there are people around to talk about them. The phenomenae that we describe using numbers will continue to behave as we describe using numbers regardless of our being around to talk about them. But that does not give numbers an existence outside of human context. Right?

A264172 · #38 08-12-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

Does anything exist onto itself or is all existence contingent on someone to perceive it?

Since existence is a concept of a being... it has to be percieved.

Or do you mean: Can a thing perceive itself in the presence of nothing.

GermanStar · #39 08-12-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djugurba

is a graviton deemed to have a concrete physical reality or merely a conceptual reality to give a way to understand goings-on? I'm not as well versed in string theory as I'd like to be. if this example fails, it doesnt defeat the original idea however.

Yes, a graviton is a type of "brane" or "string", string theory's one or multi-dimensional equivalent to quantum theory's zero-dimensional particle. String theory's requirement of an actual physical graviton is actually considered one of its more compelling arguments.

GermanStar · #40 08-12-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A264172

Since existence is a concept of a being... it has to be percieved.

Or do you mean: Can a thing perceive itself in the presence of nothing.

Existence does not require life. It only requires life to perceive it. Or do you believe that a dead universe would annihilate itself? Have you ever considerd that the universe itself is alive?

djugurba · #41 08-12-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

Yes, a graviton is a type of "brane" or "string", string theory's one or multi-dimensional equivalent to quantum theory's zero-dimensional particle. String theory's requirement of an actual physical graviton is actually considered one of its more compelling arguments.

cool. as soon as I get my move completed I'm going to get back into the theoretical physics.

#42 08-12-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

Numbers don't cause things, they measure things that already exist.

I can only relate thinking in Ron's description above! Everything in the universe can be measured, it's where and what we as human beings do with the measurements that make difference for our being human beings!

Numbers are notches, look under a micro scope, there are zillions of ways of making things fit. How we as human beings need fit, also have many ways for fitting, depending on what we need.

This is a subject that I believe no one yet can report, nor do I think anyone can provide.

A264172 · #43 08-12-2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStar

... Have you ever considerd that the universe itself is alive?

Or, much more than that.
Life as we perceive it is a sophisticated form of its dead components, capable of self-actualization through processes originating within it.
The universe would seem to be capable of processes more sophisticated by orders of magnitude over its constituent components comparable to a life forms relationship with its cells, organs...
The question being: is it possible to communicate with you cells in a way that is more than ‘an impression of duty’?

GermanStar · #44 08-12-2005, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A264172

Or, much more than that.
Life as we perceive it is a sophisticated form of its dead components, capable of self-actualization through processes originating within it.
The universe would seem to be capable of processes more sophisticated by orders of magnitude over its constituent components comparable to a life forms relationship with its cells, organs...
The question being: is it possible to communicate with you cells in a way that is more than ‘an impression of duty’?

Yes, I see you have.

If that is the case, it could absolutely explain our presence here, since a "living" universe would seem naturally predisposed to generate life. In regard to your question, damned hard to say.....

djugurba · #45 08-12-2005, 05:07 PM

Ever read Madeline L'Engle's books? A Wrinkle in Time, etc....

Similar concepts in there. In College, under the right (ahem) conditions, I used to think that trees looked remarkably like neurons, and that solar systems and atoms had similar structures, etc. Mabye God does have the whole world (literally) in his hands. Maybe we've got countless worlds of wonderful sentient beings deep down in our atomic constituent parts. Of course, these things were much less compelling about 12 hours later...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Engine Identification numbers	sitarski	Diesel Discussion	7	04-27-2005 12:35 AM
Why are Mercedes part numbers so hard to find?	JamesStein	Diesel Discussion	13	01-05-2005 03:07 PM
production numbers	kaiser	Vintage Mercedes Forum	2	07-30-2003 07:03 PM
Parts Numbers??	Billybob	Diesel Discussion	1	01-24-2002 02:50 PM
question about transmission numbers	Thai GI	Tech Help	1	12-19-2001 08:37 AM