A few yrs ago my system consisted of a Mac C22 preamp, a pr of heavily moded Altec 1570B mono tube amps. (these used 811a transmitter tubes for outputs) and either Quad ESLs or some Acustats.
Loved the sound of those ST70s on the Quads though. Nothing solid state compared at that time.

Played vinyl using an Alpha 1 moving coil cartridge.


Today my big system is a line array tops and an array of Lab subs all driven by racks of QSC and digital driveracks. Outdoors of course.

The earlier days of decent hifi trained my ear well. I strive to get the same hifi sound in large outdoor events. Every seat.

Anyone in the NTX area is welcome to come listen.

www.beanstock.org

Wait 'til you hear a 300B amp through some full-range drivers!

__________________
1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)

Yup, that old audio stuff was built to last.

I've got a rack-mounted Marantz system from the 70s that I use for stereo listening only (no TV, etc.). I've got a tuner, an intergrated amp and a cassette and CD player. Only the CD player is new. The system is matched to a pair of same vintage, Altec Lansing Model 14 horn-loaded speakers.

The sound is incredible, easily matching or out-performing today's systems. The bass is deep and refined and the sound is natural and smooth all the way to the crisp highs. You see a lot of modern systems using 10" or smaller bass drivers. You simply can't get the same depth of bass out of those that you can from a 12" or 15" driver. Then you've got the horns...talk about clarity.

***WARNING - Undisguised technical enthusiast babble from this point forward***

Frankly, I was amazed at how good this system sounded when I got it. I took the amp apart to clean it and was amazed at the build quality. Like Mike, I'm in a band and I own some old tube amps for my guitars. The older the amps, the better they tend to sound and the simpler the circuitry. At the top of the heap are point-to-point amps, where the circuitry is as named and nary a printed circuit board in sight.

So I researched my Marantz and found out some incredible stuff. Many of the audio stuff from the early 70s and earlier were over-built. My Marantz amp - an 1180DC - is one such an amp. Here's the crazy bit. The 'DC' designation in the name refers to just that, DC current - direct current, or 0 Hz. When amps list their frequency response at say, 20Hz-20KHz, the truth is that for many of them, they can't accurately and effortlessly produce anywhere near 20Hz, especially at high loads. As the amp gets closer to 20Hz, it becomes less and less accurate at reproducing that frequency.

Marantz designed the "DC" series amps to reproduce down to 0 Hz. Direct current. However, they still list the amp's range at 20Hz-20KHz. The difference is that since the amp is capable of going all the way down to 0 Hz, it can actually and cleanly reproduce 20Hz. This is what gives you the incredibly low - yet tight - bass response.

When I play Pink Floyd's "When The Tigers Broke Free", and I crank it up, the bass rattles the lights OUTSIDE my house.

Similar thinking went into my speakers. 12" bass driver coupled with a Mantaray horn with a tangerine phase plug in the driver (to keep the phase relationship correct). Altec loaded them with a very cool crossover. You've got a tone sweep provided by a mid-sweep pot and a high-sweep pot and also a very ingenious overload protection system. Basically, if you clip your amp (which in my case would require you to be deaf) and send a distorted signal to the speakers, the protection system engages, a small indicator lights up and it soaks up the unwanted power, protecting the speakers. No dumb circuit breaker here or annoying thermal breaker, just a very smart system. It only engages when it needs to and by absorbing the unwanted power, your listening experience is uninterrupted. Brilliant.

***END OF BABBLE, thanks for letting me vent my enthusiasm!***

__________________
Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired

"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

Yah - I know people are really wild for that sound, but what's good starts to get very subjective. I used to do diving work and my ears are far from perfect. Still, bad sound really bothers me; and even though I know I'm not getting the whole picture, I enjoy better stuff.
I hear more difference coming from different preamps than I do amps. The low powered stuff are in a world of their own and I'm wondering if it isn't a case of coloration.
For a long time I used a phono amp from NYAL called the SuperIt that Mod Squad had reworked and sold as a phono amp before they came out with their own. They came out with a SS unit, so that should tell you what they think of tubes. I reworked it further and added a better power supply. Anyway, got a great warm tube sound from that no matter what I played it through.
My MC cartridge went south and I replaced it with a cheap little Grado MM that Van Alstine reworks, plugged it into the MM only preamp, and took the SuperIt out of the chain.
Sounds great to me, even though every typical reviewer would laugh. I suspect that is more because the reviewers are trying to sell product, and that little two step just removed about $3/4,000 from the cost of the system. Keeping it simple has it's adavantages, and these full range systems eliminate a ton of complexity. I think some of the very old folded horn theater speaker setups are highly coveted by that crowd.

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

I had their little preamp! I think it was called the Minuet? Anyway, yes, sound is, of course, VERY subjective. I have owned all kinds of stuff... Magnepans, Acoustats, Altec VOTs heartily modified, Klipsch, EV, Von Schweickert, etc... I like the little 4.5" Fostex drivers in homemade TQWT cabinets best! I think it's the lack of a crossover; just pure 300B warmth. I sold off most of my gear to make way for this setup; the rest went into my home theater setup, and is slowly being pawned off too, as I find it hard to justify mega-$ amps and pres in an A/V system. The visual portion of the experience is distracting to the point that such sonic achievements are unnecessary and go largely unnoticed.

Anyway, yeah, I agree. Hi-end audio is disturbingly subjective, but one sad fact remains: unless you are a DIY'er, to get REALLY good sound, you've got to pay to play. The old Dyna stuff is good, but modding it makes it SO much better. That costs $ if you pay someone to do it... bummer! I am tinkering with different cables; I'll be damned if the super-high-$ solid silver interconnects I was loaned didn't sound harsh as can be on digital, but it sounded great between my phono-pre and preamp. There is a DIY speaker cable for SET amps made from CAT-5 networking cable. I was impressed when I heard it, and it's cheap. I need to find a spool of that stuff and have a go at that.

The pre-made cables and interconnects are scary expensive, and much of that seems to be snakeoil, as I'm sure you have discovered too. My friend designed and manufactured Sonoran cables and interconnects and used to send me all kinds of stuff to try out and evaluate. I got to keep it, and it is nice stuff, but he was getting some ridiculous money for his stuff.

__________________
1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)

For sure
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html
Good enough for me. Out in the Valley in LA there's a place that caters to the studios. I think it's on Burbank Blvd. - can't remember the name - Electronic City I think. Sells bulk cable, shrink tube and this neat finger trap kind of covering and you can make up some very acceptable cables.

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

That's the stuff! I am anxious to try it out. Rat Shack has Cat 5 cable, but I'll be damned if I'll pay their price... need to get with the IT guys here at work and get some for free!

__________________
1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)

Try here -
http://www.motionnet.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?a=sc&no=12855

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

A few years ago, we did a blind listening test at my friend's recording studio in Atlanta, to find out how much difference there really was in the high-$$ speaker cables that are available. We tried most of the usual suspects: Mogami, Monster Cable, etc..... all the way down to the cheapo Radio Shack stuff, and some LAMP CORD!

For each test pass, we were using a track from a CD that we were all familiar with, through two channels of their vintage API recording console, into a pair of Yamaha NS-10 monitor speakers.

Most of us (there were 9 or 10 guys there, I recall) could here little or no difference between the various brands.... except for one.

Any guesses as to which one most of us thought sounded best?.......




We couldn't believe it when it was revealed which one most of us had chosen as our favorite......






You're gonna' laugh, but I'm serious........







The LAMP CORD! It seemed to have the best tone, and colored the sound the least. Amazing.

You never know..... Sometimes you DON'T have to spend a fortune to get good sound.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

From your perspective in a band - What do you think of the old Quad setups. I've run into more than one studio player that have them as a reference. I shouldn't even mention the name NAIM if we're talking sensibly priced, but they design their equipment to only work well togeather, and with their own interconnects and cables. Creek is also similar. Sometimes I think you spend more to just have a clean volume control and then wind up adjusting the tone with cables when simple room treatments would do more.

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

For a lot of our heavily used gear - like footswitch cables and a/b stompboxes, we made our own cables. Just used good quality stock cable (Neutrix) and soldered everything ourselves. They sound fine, are cheaper than say Monster Cable or Planet Waves, and they're much stronger.

__________________
Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired

"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

Yep. We did the same thing.... On more than one occasion, we would order a big spool of mogami wire and some ends and have a "soldering party". Those cables almost ALWAYS outlasted any of the pre-made stuff. Cheaper too.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

I'm not personally familiar enough to comment, but I've always heard good reports.....

I can tell you my LEAST favorite studio monitors, as far as the mid- and high-end stuff, are the Genelecs. At least for rock, I don't like them at all... They are very popular and a lot of studios have them, but to me they are very "soft" sounding, for lack of a better word. Very clean and open sounding, but no punch, no impact. They are probably great for referencing classical, new age, maybe jazz..... But that's not what I do. For rock, they just seem to lack a lot of "oomph".

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

lol...I've always thought veteran touring musicians should get an honorary electronics diploma/degree. From troubleshooting circuits, to wiring, to soldering and let's not forget duct tape, there isn't much we can't fix in a pinch audio-wise.

__________________
Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired

"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

Here's a nice piece I picked up a coupla years ago.



Tell you one thing I learned about cable. Cables sound different in different environments, or rather, the weaknesses in poorly shielded cables are amplified in direct proportion to the noise in the environment. I have a pair of Nordost Blue Heaven cables which work really well upstairs, but for some reason they pick up all kinds of noise downstairs. The absolute best is ptfe shielded twisted cable. They naturally reject RF and are relatively simple to build. All my interconnects and speaker cable are built this way.

__________________
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman