The next common enemy... - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #**106** 03-19-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdemoss01

If all cars were required to go 40 miles to a gallon of gas then no, NO oil would need be imported.

What is wrong with diesel vehicles? Many, if not most vehicles in Europe are diesel. (I learned this to my chagrin when I first rented a car in France and attempted to fill it up with TOTAL gas. I didn't know it was diesel when I rented it or drove it.

Ethanol is another corporate farm subsidy to Archer-Daniels-Midland. Why not just use vegetable oil fueled diesel engines to eliminate oil imports? Nothing facy pie-in-sky hybrid futuristic BS, just proven get me there.

Why not pour money into high speed express trains paralleling interstate systems. Call it a military defence project. Billions poured into Iraq could be used for jobs and infrastructure in this country.

Airlines have only made money if you discount government infrastructure subsidies. Most the time they haven't made money even then. And these days what a PIA it is to take an airplane anywhere.

You going to make the cars out of wood and metal and leather? Since it does require a lot of oil to make other stuff like plastics. Secondly, a lot of our oil is being sold because they are paying more for it somewhere else, IIRC. If you are paying $50 a barrel and someone is paying $50.25, all the oil we have here would be sold there.

What is wrong with diesels? Well to begin with, you would have to change quite a bit of the infrastructure. Many gas stations would have to drill another container in their land to accomodate diesel tanks. $$. Also, diesel is not the answer. It gets maybe 20% more mileage but it is not a free lunch. You have more gelling issues and look at the pumps. They are always an oily mess. Among other issues, that is the trade off. Not a free lunch.

Ethanol is a political thing. Makes you feel good and keeps corn farmers happy. Now, if you were going to design a car around ethanol, maybe. But see, you again have to change the infrastructure and have gas stations add another tank.

Call it this, that or the other is what politicians are good at. However, Iraq is a different animal. IMO, it may be about stability that we are trying to achieve. The issue is not that if we are oil independent, we are fine. You see, we have a global economy. Even if we are independent of oil imports, if others tank, so do we.

Try going from WI to CA and tell me how much of a PITA it is. Find me something that goes faster with less hassle. Car? 3 days of hard driving. Train? At least a couple days.

gdemoss01 · #**107** 03-19-2006, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

You going to make the cars out of wood and metal and leather? Since it does require a lot of oil to make other stuff like plastics..

The amount of oil required to make a car is miniscule compared to the oil consumed by the same car.

.[/QUOTE]What is wrong with diesels? Well to begin with, you would have to change quite a bit of the infrastructure. Many gas stations would have to drill another container in their land to accomodate diesel tanks. $$. Also, diesel is not the answer. It gets maybe 20% more mileage but it is not a free lunch. You have more gelling issues and look at the pumps. They are always an oily mess. Among other issues, that is the trade off. Not a free lunch..[/QUOTE]

I have seen VERY few service stations without a diesel pump or two (at least where I've been: most of the country). I've been running diesels and have yet to have any issue with gelling, etc., however I do use a block heater on the coldest of mornings for a few hours. I also have not noticed any "oily mess" at diesel pumps. Wis can not be that much different than MO hillbillies.

.[/QUOTE]Ethanol is a political thing. Makes you feel good and keeps corn farmers happy..[/QUOTE]

Archer-Daniels-Midlands ("supermarket-to-the-world") is the countries largest producer of ethanol.

.[/QUOTE]Call it this, that or the other is what politicians are good at. However, Iraq is a different animal. IMO, it may be about stability that we are trying to achieve. The issue is not that if we are oil independent, we are fine. You see, we have a global economy. Even if we are independent of oil imports, if others tank, so do we..[/QUOTE]

If others tank, we especially tank when they hold (commie China principally and Japan) most of our debt.

Read some of the British attempts to establish a democratic Iraq after WW I and their "quit Memopotamia" movement in the 1920 for an example of Iraq redux. We quickly forget what happened to them just as we forgot what happened to the French at Dienbien Phu.

.[/QUOTE]Try going from WI to CA and tell me how much of a PITA it is. Find me something that goes faster with less hassle. Car? 3 days of hard driving. Train? At least a couple days.[/QUOTE]

I have rarely had a much comfort riding and sleeping in a sleeper train from Paris to Barcelona. Arrived quite rested and ready for a full day of work.

aklim · #**108** 03-20-2006, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdemoss01

The amount of oil required to make a car is miniscule compared to the oil consumed by the same car.

I have seen VERY few service stations without a diesel pump or two (at least where I've been: most of the country). I've been running diesels and have yet to have any issue with gelling, etc., however I do use a block heater on the coldest of mornings for a few hours. I also have not noticed any "oily mess" at diesel pumps. Wis can not be that much different than MO hillbillies.

I have rarely had a much comfort riding and sleeping in a sleeper train from Paris to Barcelona. Arrived quite rested and ready for a full day of work.

I guess my point was that there are many things that we use oil for besides fuel.

Don't know but most of the stations I see besides truck stops don't sell diesel, at least in WI and the other areas in the midwest, it seems like it is harder to find a diesel station than a gas station. With gas, no block heater is required. As to gelling, like I said, some places have problems with it which is why they sell anti-gel agents? I don't know about you but I wear gloves because of the mess at the pumps and have to walk carefully in case I bring it into the car and on the carpet.

But it still takes a couple of days by train. Plane is faster, that is my point.

Lebenz · #**109** 03-20-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

Most people do not want to give up their personal car and the freedom and convenience it provides. I certainly will not EVER do so.

Mike

Agreed, a lot of folk don’t like public transportation. I wouldn't say most but many. But a number of folk do use it, and a lot more would use it if the “experience” was nicer than what is commonly available. A big plus to anyone would be to cut their vehicle costs by a lot. The key to gaining ridership would be to identify complaints or dislikes about the current systems and make changes accordingly.

Most public transportation exists on 2 different paradigms 1) a vehicle that travels on a fixed route and has a fixed schedule. This is a bus. 2) A vehicle which arrives on a timely basis and takes you to your destination. This is a taxi or ride-share platform. Both are limited in their availability. I'm suggesting several slight improvements, where not only the typical trouble spots of limited availability and crowds don’t exist, but there are several up-side advantages, cost, convenience, and enjoyment of the experience.

Want to transport groceries? No problem, vehicles would be designed with this in mind. Want the vehicle to yourself? Again, schedule it and pay a bit more. With the volume of these to fit the timely needs of the market, taxis would cease to exist, or become the dumb choice in the world of transportation.

Think of the larger permutations. Fewer cars means fewer fuel stations, lower road maintenance, lower pollution. Lower or no dependence of foreign oil. Lower or no need to continue to pander to countries who offer oil for sale. Lower taxes and better use of the tax dollars. Lower insurance rates and fewer accidents. Houses, buildings, apartments with far less space devoted to parking. The average Joe could free up 75% (admittedly a made up number) of their vehicle related expenses.

aklim · #**110** 03-20-2006, 11:20 AM

Problem with public transport is that is isn't convenient. IOW, I cannot come and go as I please. Right now I can get in my car and drive there. Can any public transport do that? As long as the car works, I can get going and not at the whim of some scheduler.

As long as oil is a commodity, you still have to pander to those selling it since even if you don't buy from them, the cost of oil still affects everyone. If we found a huge oil reserve in Texas that could supply the USA, do you think that will be the be-all and end-all?

Lebenz · #**111** 03-20-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

But if the market is going to be the driving force, why not leave things as they are until the market forces a change?

B

But what is “the market” really? Can you name an instance where someone didn’t have a good idea and frequently not so good of an idea, and sold it to the public? All “the market” is or ever was or ever will be is presentation done by someone to fulfill a perceived need or create the perception of value that is often called savings.

Some examples:

The Shane company is your friend in the diamond business.
Costco: More for less.
Chevron: Clean your engine with every fill up.
Starbucks: Want a cup of coffee with 14 additional ingredients? And a scone?
The Men’s Warehouse: Quality clothing for less. I guarantee it.

These are examples of “the market.” The list is endless.

The key shortcoming at this point is the lack of infrastructure. We don’t have the tools in place for GPS routing of the type I describe, we don’t have the means of providing wireless internet from all over the city or county. We don’t have quite enough computers to provide all potential customers with web access. But we are getting there in a hurry.

Will the country drown due to our selfish demands? Will we give a little more to serve our needs? History demonstrates that life in common is all about sacrificing perceptions of need in trade for security. Folks don't even realize it because it is normal for our perceptions. Right next to food, clothing, and housing, transportation is our leading element of personal security. What more market force is needed?

This is clearly a HUGE opportunity just waiting for the pieces to come together.

Lebenz · #**112** 03-20-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I'm not doing some psuedo noble sacrifice by trying to use less energy. IME, efficiency has great rewards. Every drop of energy I use has to be paid for, cept sunlight, of course, that's why hanging clothes out to dry appeals to me.

I see people choke on money and gee-gaws. I've worked on around 15 to 20 multi-million dollar homes, several in the 15 to 25 thousand sq. ft. range. Some of these people will never know how clueless they appear. They're smart in some narrow, focused way, but the way they clutter up their houses with excessive stuff is a bit sad.

Energy efficiency is a growth industry and will be for a long time. I'm going to do my best to be ready to cash in. Practicing it now is the first step.

In many regards I agree completely. I've never been a fan of consumerism but at its more humble levels it fulfills needs. It is also a fact of life that it takes money and energy to make money. However, beyond a point all exists as metaphor and illusion, or as Schopenhauer stated the phenomena, all reality is will and representation.

A car is typically a metaphor of power. For some the metaphor isn’t worth the cost and so they opt for a metaphor of economy. Hence the Puris and other hybrids that wreak of economy, even they too are more expensive than a simple very fuel efficient vehicle. Again, a case of representation pretending to be something greater than the parts.

So we all pay for stuff. Some even profit from it. A funny thing I've seen in some of the wealthier folk I work for (and everyone else) is that after a while folk loose track of things. I would suggest that few are so focused in their lives that they will never indulge a whim. Were it not for that detail, there would be no 25,000 sq foot houses, even with solar panels draped a plenty like jewelry sparkling in the morning sun.

Lebenz · #**113** 03-20-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdemoss01

If all cars were required to go 40 miles to a gallon of gas then no, NO oil would need be imported.

Yep. Gas or diesel, or propane, or fuel cells, or.... That would and ultimately will be another part of the forumla. Require greater fuel efficiency with the force of law. At the same time give folk an option upon retiring their piggish steed to start using the cool public transport i outlined, or buy another, but very fuel efficent car. Folk would flock to public transport compared to monthly car payments.

There's your market force. . .

Lebenz · #**114** 03-20-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Problem with public transport is that is isn't convenient. IOW, I cannot come and go as I please. Right now I can get in my car and drive there. Can any public transport do that? As long as the car works, I can get going and not at the whim of some scheduler.

Where would we be without options? But remember I’m suggesting replacing about 200,000 vehicles in my community with, say 50,000 public transport vehicles. So you'd never have much of a wait....

aklim · #**115** 03-20-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

Yep. That would and ultimately will be another part of the forumla. Require greater fuel efficiency with the force of law. At the same time give folk an option upon retiring their piggish steed to start using the cool public transport i outlined, or buy another, but very fuel efficent car. Folk would flock to public transport compared to monthly car payments.

There's your market force. . .

And as soon as you did that, you are involving the government again. Once again, think Rumplestiltskin. So, if they had to buy new cars, you going to pay the difference? Your cool public transportation going to be a replacement for our cars? How? For daily to and fro in the city, maybe. However, many folks also commute. How cool would that be? Been there, done that. With some of the routes in Madison, it takes me 2 hours to get to the other side of town whereas I can do it in 15 mins in my car.

cmac2012 · #**116** 03-20-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

In many regards I agree completely. I've never been a fan of consumerism but at its more humble levels it fulfills needs. It is also a fact of life that it takes money and energy to make money. However, beyond a point all exists as metaphor and illusion, or as Schopenhauer stated the phenomena, all reality is will and representation.

A car is typically a metaphor of power. For some the metaphor isn’t worth the cost and so they opt for a metaphor of economy. Hence the Puris and other hybrids that wreak of economy, even they too are more expensive than a simple very fuel efficient vehicle. Again, a case of representation pretending to be something greater than the parts.

So we all pay for stuff. Some even profit from it. A funny thing I've seen in some of the wealthier folk I work for (and everyone else) is that after a while folk loose track of things. I would suggest that few are so focused in their lives that they will never indulge a whim. Were it not for that detail, there would be no 25,000 sq foot houses, even with solar panels draped a plenty like jewelry sparkling in the morning sun.

Well put. We did one house in Palo Alto, finished in '98, 12,000 sq. ft., pretty impressive architecturally, slate roof, walnut floors. I did some maintenance for the lady of the house in the years after -- they had so much furntiture packing that house, it was difficult to walk through some rooms. Really bad feng shui, but I doubt they ever considered that.

aklim · #**117** 03-20-2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

Where would we be without options? But remember I’m suggesting replacing about 200,000 vehicles in my community with, say 50,000 public transport vehicles. So you'd never have much of a wait....

Sounds good to me. How would they go where I want and when I want? What If I changed my mind halfway and needed to make a stop for a gallon of milk? So there is no drawback and all positives? Really? You sound like an advocate. All plusses and no negatives. Or a used car salesman, take your pick.

mikemover · #**118** 03-20-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What is wrong with diesels? Well to begin with, you would have to change quite a bit of the infrastructure. Many gas stations would have to drill another container in their land to accomodate diesel tanks. $$. Also, diesel is not the answer. It gets maybe 20% more mileage but it is not a free lunch. You have more gelling issues and look at the pumps. They are always an oily mess. Among other issues, that is the trade off. Not a free lunch.

I disagree. Diesel and diesel/electric hybrids are a FAR superior choice.

The infrastructure is already there. Diesel fuel is not at all difficult to find, and I have never understood why this misconception exists. There are truck stops everywhere that are VERY well-equipped to sell enormous volumes of diesel fuel. There are gas stations all over the place that already sell diesel. There's really no need for three grades of gasoline, so at stations that do not yet sell diesel fuel, the middle-grade gas tanks/pumps could easily be converted to diesel.

Converting to ethanol or fuel-cell type vehicles would require MUCH more extensive changes to the current infrastructure.

Diesel engines are also FAR more versatile, being able to burn a MUCH wider variety of fuels than any other type of engine. More and more suppliers of biodiesel are springing up on an almost monthly basis... And now we are starting to see truck stops and gas stations that sell biodiesel blends as well. Waste vegetable oil is another excellent option, being both very economical and very environmentally friendly.

Gelling has never been a problem for me, even in my 20-25 year-old diesel vehicles. In extremely cold environments, block/tank heaters sometimes must be used, which is no big deal. It's even less of a problem in newer diesels.

I think you are greatly underestimating the potential of diesel-based technology.

Mike

aklim · #**119** 03-20-2006, 12:29 PM

Plugging in for a tank and block heaters are a big deal if you don't have an outlet and a length of cable, timer, etc, etc. My 99 Powerstroke didn't want to start up in 10 degree weather. It was too far for the cord I had. Turned to the gas car and it fired right up. BTW, my dad plugged his powerstroke in for a month and his electric bill doubled. However, he needed the truck to be on standby.

cmac2012 · #**120** 03-20-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Plugging in for a tank and block heaters are a big deal if you don't have an outlet and a length of cable, timer, etc, etc. My 99 Powerstroke didn't want to start up in 10 degree weather. It was too far for the cord I had. Turned to the gas car and it fired right up. BTW, my dad plugged his powerstroke in for a month and his electric bill doubled. However, he needed the truck to be on standby.

We have perhaps the highest degree of labor saving devices of any society ever known on the planet. And yet I see little interest on your part to inconvenience yourself in any way, even if it means living more intelligently.